mckenzie8391

I met a 32 year old lady on-line from Thailand about a year ago, and we
became very good friends. She works as a sales supervisor for a well
known US company with a production facility in Thailand. She is fluent
in english and coodinates sales and shipmets to customers in the US. By
Thai standards, she makes a good living.

I finally went to visit her over the most recent Thai new year and met
her family. All her brothers and sisters are college graduates and she
comes from family that owns 2 'farms', (more like plantations), in
Chumphon province south of Bangkok. To make a long story short, we want
to be married, her family approves, I want to bring her to the USA on a
Finance Visa. (I will be going again the first week in July for a
visit).

The big problem is that shortly after graduating form college, at age
25, in 1999, she married a Chinese immigrant to South Africa and moved
there, only to later discover she'd been conned. The 'marriage' was
never recorded. Her 'husband' had a friend at the Department of Home
Affairs in South Africa that never recorded the marriage, and to top it
off the man had 2 other wives he'd married in a similar manner in
different countries. She left this man right after the birth of thier
daughter and returned to Thailand. I have an attorney in Johannesburg
that is trying to get some sort of statement or aknowledgement that the
marriage was fraudulent, or, if necssary, get a divorce or an
anullment.

My question is, once we get this done, and obtain some sort of proof
that she is eligible to marry, how is this going to effect the ability
of her daughter to come to the USA? The natural father, we discovered,
did finally get legally married in 2001 in South Africa - but has since
returned to his nativie China with his new bride and we have absolutly
no knowledge of his whereabouts.

Is there going to be some sort of problem we have to deal with as far
as getting the natural fathers permission for the child to come with
her to the US? Anyone hear of a similar problem?

Suggestions would be most appreciated.

Bill

Kat

Just out of curiosity Bill is the natural father on the birth
certificate.

Bill

Yes, and she was born in South Africa.

-Allie73Kat74

> Yes, and she was born in South Africa.

Hmmm that makes it tough Bill....maybe you could get a statement of some
sort stating there is no contact with the natural father an last
whereabouts are unknown but i don't know for sure so you would be best
to ask your attorney of which direction they would recommend best for
you....i am not a lawyer so i would hate to misinform you so i am just
offering a suggestion. Good luck with your quest an congrates on
finding someone you care about please keep us posted

Maxwell

<> wrote in message
news:...
<~>
> The big problem is that shortly after graduating form college, at age
> 25, in 1999, she married a Chinese immigrant to South Africa and moved
> there, only to later discover she'd been conned. The 'marriage' was
> never recorded. Her 'husband' had a friend at the Department of Home
> Affairs in South Africa that never recorded the marriage, and to top it
> off the man had 2 other wives he'd married in a similar manner in
> different countries. She left this man right after the birth of thier
> daughter and returned to Thailand. I have an attorney in Johannesburg
> that is trying to get some sort of statement or aknowledgement that the
> marriage was fraudulent, or, if necssary, get a divorce or an
> anullment.
> My question is, once we get this done, and obtain some sort of proof
> that she is eligible to marry, how is this going to effect the ability
> of her daughter to come to the USA? The natural father, we discovered,
> did finally get legally married in 2001 in South Africa - but has since
> returned to his nativie China with his new bride and we have absolutly
> no knowledge of his whereabouts.
> Is there going to be some sort of problem we have to deal with as far
> as getting the natural fathers permission for the child to come with
> her to the US? Anyone hear of a similar problem?
> Suggestions would be most appreciated.
> Bill

A general rule of thumb would be to consult a US immigration lawyer when the
situation is complicated with what may be uncertain claims upon child
custody, which at face seems a possibility, as the child's birth certificate
bears the father's name, while the non-recorded marriage in SA (and thus no
decree of divorce/annulment and particularly custody might conceivably
complicate your fiance's claim to sole custody of the child. BCIS is alert
to trans-national parental child abductions, and while you and your fiance
know the truth of the matter, well . .

Whether the K-1 fiance visa or some other immigration filing path is most
optimal for your situation might also benefit from US legal advice.

While your attorney in SA is looking into getting some certification of
annulment or such, has he said (or have you asked him) about getting some
sort of certification regarding abandonment of the child, if that's possible
there?

BCIS regards the laws of the child's country of birth when US citizens seek
to adopt--but with the unadjudicated situation in SA, that seems to
complicate *that* possible workaround, but one other idea comes to mind, .
which is that if the court in Thailand establishes the child's mother as
having full parental rights, it might greatly simplify matters.
From
http://travel.state.gov/family/abduc...untry_528.html

<q> CHILD CUSTODY: Under Thai law, the question of child custody is
addressed in Book Five of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code under the
general headings Termination of Marriage and Rights and Duties of Parent and
Child. The relevant portions of the law follow in full:

Section 1520.
In case of divorce by mutual consent, the agreement for the exercise of
parental power over each of the children shall be made in writing. In the
absence of such agreement or (if) an agreement thereon cannot be reached,
the matter shall be decided by the court.

In case of divorce by judgment of the court, the parental power belongs to
the party in whose favor the judgment is given, unless it is decided by the
court that the parental power shall belong to the other party, or that a
third person shall be the guardian.
<snip>
Section 1522.
In the case of divorce by mutual consent, an arrangement shall be made and
contained in the agreement of divorce as to who, both of the spouses or
either spouse, will contribute to the maintenance of the children and how
much is the contribution. In case of divorce by judgment of the court or in
case the agreement of divorce contains no provisions concerning the
maintenance of the children, the court shall determine it.

~~~So, If Thai court grants divorce judgment for her previous marriage, she
can be granted parental power. Certified translation of the decree would be
needed for BCIS, though check directly with BCIS or US immigration attorney
to ascertain this is a viable path; paying for an attorney consultation,
even if you handle all the filings yourself, can be money well spent ~~

Section 1566.
A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris. The
parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the
following cases:

(1) The father or mother is dead;

(2) It is uncertain whether the father or the mother is living or dead;

~~~Which may be quite pertinent before the Thai court, as with whereabouts
in China of the child's father unknown, how to say he's alive?~~~

(3) The father or the mother has been adjudged incompetent or
quasi-incompetent;

(4) The father or the mother is placed in a hospital by reason of mental
infirmity;

(5) The parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an
order of the court. </q>

~~~With her being a Thai citizen, of good standing, from landed family, a
Thai lawyer's petition to the court seems at face likely to be as smooth
sailing as these things could be, and perhaps someone in her family knows of
a competent lawyer with particular experience in divorce and custody?~~~

~~Does her young child have Thai nationality?~~

<q> ACQUIRING THAI NATIONALITY: The Thai Nationality Act, Doc No. 2, B.E.
2535 (1992), states that any child born in Thailand of at least one
Thai-citizen parent is a Thai citizen. If the child is born outside of
Thailand, and has at least one Thai-citizen parent, the Thai parent can
report the birth of the child to the nearest Thai Embassy or Consulate and
the child will acquire Thai citizenship.

~~Has she previously reported the birth to the Consular office? If she's in
Central Thailand, the ministry out on the outskirts of Bangkok, on Chaeng
Wattana may be the place to phone for details~~

SPECIAL COURTS: Juvenile and Family Courts to hear custody cases can be
found only in Bangkok and a few of the larger cities in Thailand </q>

Have you phoned anyone at BCIS information center?
http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/NCSC.htm

Lastly, one wee bit of posting advice. While you've supplied many details to
help others help you, being more specific in titling the Subject line better
attracts the attention of anyone who might have knowledge pertaining to your
situation; not everyone reads every post. I've added a hopefully helpful
tag.
-maxwell
(please verify any and all of my advice with an attorney, as I am no
attorney)

-Bill

maxwell wrote:
> <> wrote in message
> news:...
> <~>
> > The big problem is that shortly after graduating form college, at age
> > 25, in 1999, she married a Chinese immigrant to South Africa and moved
> > there, only to later discover she'd been conned. The 'marriage' was
> > never recorded. Her 'husband' had a friend at the Department of Home
> > Affairs in South Africa that never recorded the marriage, and to top it
> > off the man had 2 other wives he'd married in a similar manner in
> > different countries. She left this man right after the birth of thier
> > daughter and returned to Thailand. I have an attorney in Johannesburg
> > that is trying to get some sort of statement or aknowledgement that the
> > marriage was fraudulent, or, if necssary, get a divorce or an
> > anullment.
> >
> > My question is, once we get this done, and obtain some sort of proof
> > that she is eligible to marry, how is this going to effect the ability
> > of her daughter to come to the USA? The natural father, we discovered,
> > did finally get legally married in 2001 in South Africa - but has since
> > returned to his nativie China with his new bride and we have absolutly
> > no knowledge of his whereabouts.
> >
> > Is there going to be some sort of problem we have to deal with as far
> > as getting the natural fathers permission for the child to come with
> > her to the US? Anyone hear of a similar problem?
> >
> > Suggestions would be most appreciated.
> > Bill
>
> A general rule of thumb would be to consult a US immigration lawyer when the
> situation is complicated with what may be uncertain claims upon child
> custody, which at face seems a possibility, as the child's birth certificate
> bears the father's name, while the non-recorded marriage in SA (and thus no
> decree of divorce/annulment and particularly custody might conceivably
> complicate your fiance's claim to sole custody of the child. BCIS is alert
> to trans-national parental child abductions, and while you and your fiance
> know the truth of the matter, well . .
>
> Whether the K-1 fiance visa or some other immigration filing path is most
> optimal for your situation might also benefit from US legal advice.
>
> While your attorney in SA is looking into getting some certification of
> annulment or such, has he said (or have you asked him) about getting some
> sort of certification regarding abandonment of the child, if that's possible
> there?
>
> BCIS regards the laws of the child's country of birth when US citizens seek
> to adopt--but with the unadjudicated situation in SA, that seems to
> complicate *that* possible workaround, but one other idea comes to mind, .
> which is that if the court in Thailand establishes the child's mother as
> having full parental rights, it might greatly simplify matters.
> From
> http://travel.state.gov/family/abduction/country/country_528.html
>
> <q> CHILD CUSTODY: Under Thai law, the question of child custody is
> addressed in Book Five of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code under the
> general headings Termination of Marriage and Rights and Duties of Parent and
> Child. The relevant portions of the law follow in full:
>
> Section 1520.
> In case of divorce by mutual consent, the agreement for the exercise of
> parental power over each of the children shall be made in writing. In the
> absence of such agreement or (if) an agreement thereon cannot be reached,
> the matter shall be decided by the court.
>
> In case of divorce by judgment of the court, the parental power belongs to
> the party in whose favor the judgment is given, unless it is decided by the
> court that the parental power shall belong to the other party, or that a
> third person shall be the guardian.
> <snip>
> Section 1522.
> In the case of divorce by mutual consent, an arrangement shall be made and
> contained in the agreement of divorce as to who, both of the spouses or
> either spouse, will contribute to the maintenance of the children and how
> much is the contribution. In case of divorce by judgment of the court or in
> case the agreement of divorce contains no provisions concerning the
> maintenance of the children, the court shall determine it.
>
> ~~~So, If Thai court grants divorce judgment for her previous marriage, she
> can be granted parental power. Certified translation of the decree would be
> needed for BCIS, though check directly with BCIS or US immigration attorney
> to ascertain this is a viable path; paying for an attorney consultation,
> even if you handle all the filings yourself, can be money well spent ~~
>
> Section 1566.
> A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris. The
> parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the
> following cases:
>
> (1) The father or mother is dead;
>
> (2) It is uncertain whether the father or the mother is living or dead;
>
> ~~~Which may be quite pertinent before the Thai court, as with whereabouts
> in China of the child's father unknown, how to say he's alive?~~~
>
> (3) The father or the mother has been adjudged incompetent or
> quasi-incompetent;
>
> (4) The father or the mother is placed in a hospital by reason of mental
> infirmity;
>
> (5) The parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an
> order of the court. </q>
>
> ~~~With her being a Thai citizen, of good standing, from landed family, a
> Thai lawyer's petition to the court seems at face likely to be as smooth
> sailing as these things could be, and perhaps someone in her family knows of
> a competent lawyer with particular experience in divorce and custody?~~~
>
> ~~Does her young child have Thai nationality?~~
>
> <q> ACQUIRING THAI NATIONALITY: The Thai Nationality Act, Doc No. 2, B.E.
> 2535 (1992), states that any child born in Thailand of at least one
> Thai-citizen parent is a Thai citizen. If the child is born outside of
> Thailand, and has at least one Thai-citizen parent, the Thai parent can
> report the birth of the child to the nearest Thai Embassy or Consulate and
> the child will acquire Thai citizenship.
>
> ~~Has she previously reported the birth to the Consular office? If she's in
> Central Thailand, the ministry out on the outskirts of Bangkok, on Chaeng
> Wattana may be the place to phone for details~~
>
> SPECIAL COURTS: Juvenile and Family Courts to hear custody cases can be
> found only in Bangkok and a few of the larger cities in Thailand </q>
>
> Have you phoned anyone at BCIS information center?
> http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/NCSC.htm
>
> Lastly, one wee bit of posting advice. While you've supplied many details to
> help others help you, being more specific in titling the Subject line better
> attracts the attention of anyone who might have knowledge pertaining to your
> situation; not everyone reads every post. I've added a hopefully helpful
> tag.
> -maxwell
> (please verify any and all of my advice with an attorney, as I am no
> attorney)

maxwell,

i did find out that when the child was born, she did report the birth
to the
Thai Embasy in Pretoria SA and did get a Thia birth certificate for the
child.

When I made this post I was under the impression that I had the problem
of getting her prior 'marrige' decared nul and void whipped, and I was
moving
on and looking down the road to adopting her daughter.

I really do apprecate your input and assistance. It was shortly after
this
post that I found out that I was basically back to squre one on the
marriage
issue and I have been arguing back and forth with the attorney in SA, I
feel
I was misled. They used my retainer to investigate matters and get
information
I already had, rather that using the informatin I had provided to
approach the
High Court. Now they are singing a different tune saying they cannot
approach
the High Court to nulify or void a marriage that does not exist. They
are
saying they have to get this mans second marriage voided by proving
that
he married my fiance first, get the marriage to my fianice recongised,
then go
for divorce.

So - again, thanks for your help. I am just more concerned right now
about
getting them both over here.

I did go down to the USCIS office here, and she does not need to get
permission from the father to bring her child to the US. He would have
to try to stop her form the Thai side, which is not going to happen
since
he's not even in the picture. Down the road, adoptino may be a
prioblem,
but I am just trying to get over one hurdle at a time here.

I thought I was over the first one, and it seems I am not.

Bill

Maxwell

you've got mail
-maxwell

-Bill

Thanks!

maxwell wrote:
> you've got mail
> -maxwell