Joe Feise

Oliver Costich wrote on 12/20/2004 07:09:
    >
    > I was in CS for some of the grants, mostly from the US Army and Navy.
    > There is not that much from the private sector compared to the public
    > funds. It's tiny in CS and a pittance overall.

Well, that has changed considerably. Sun, Microsoft, IBM, and others are
nowadays rather big in giving grants.

    >>>Then you tell me where it comes from. Some does come from alumni and
    >>>corporate donors. What's the source of the rest?
    >>Well, for example, the University of California budget has a large portion that
    >>comes from services rendered, e.g., through the university hospitals...
    >>See the UC budget here:
    >>http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../515attach.pdf
    >
    >
    > Many universities with hospitals do get funds from services. And some
    > of them, like George Washington U spend most of it on real estate.
    >
    > The vast majority of universities receive significant amounts of tax
    > money in excess of tuition.

Well, nice try. I did not dispute that. I disputed your claim of "the rest
coming from taxes." It is interesting to see how your wording changed ;-)

-Joe

Fatman

    > On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:23:11 -0800, Joe Feise <> wrote:
    > >Oliver Costich wrote on 12/18/2004 14:06:
    > >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:35:44 -0800, Joe Feise <>
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>Oliver Costich wrote on 12/17/2004 10:15:
    > >>>>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:19:01 GMT, "Rodo" <>
    > >>>>wrote:
    > >>>>>How would you calculate the burden on the education of an
    > >>>>>undocumented
    > >>>>>Alien (UA) vs. a citizen ? I know the state pays a big chunk of
    > >>>>>my (a
    > >>>>>citizen) college tuition. But, unless the UA is using grant money
    > >>>>>to pay
    > >>>>>his/her tuition, I can't see the difference. Specially if I and
    > >>>>>the UA work
    > >>>>>and pay taxes. Somehow this doesn't sound right (from the money
    > >>>>>point of
    > >>>>>view).
    > >>>>>I'm not condoning UD. I'm just curious about the money issue
    > >>>>>here. Sorry if
    > >>>>>I've offended anyone.
    > >>>>>Thanks
    > >>>>No offense. But the costs of education are far higher than the
    > >>>>taxes
    > >>>>paid, especially by lower income people. At public universities,
    > >>>>tuition is a tiny fraction of the full cost, the rest coming from
    > >>>>taxes.
    > >>>Not quite true. I find that you often perpetuate these half-truths.
    > >>>Sure, public universities get tax money. But a significant portion
    > >>>of their
    > >>>budget comes from other sources, including taking a large
    > >>>percentage from the
    > >>>grants that are awarded to professors.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Where do you think the grants come from? Primarily from Federal tax
    > >> money. I know because when I was a college professor I had several
    > >> of
    > >> them and know full well how much the university takes for
    > >> "overhead".
    > >Depending on the area, there are lots of grants from private
    > >companies,
    > >especially in CS.
    > I was in CS for some of the grants, mostly from the US Army and Navy.
    > There is not that much from the private sector compared to the public
    > funds. It's tiny in CS and a pittance overall.
    > >> Then you tell me where it comes from. Some does come from alumni
    > >> and
    > >> corporate donors. What's the source of the rest?
    > >Well, for example, the University of California budget has a large
    > >portion that
    > >comes from services rendered, e.g., through the university
    > >hospitals...
    > >See the UC budget here:
    > >http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../nov04/515att-
    > >ach.pdf
    > Many universities with hospitals do get funds from services. And some
    > of them, like George Washington U spend most of it on real estate.
    > The vast majority of universities receive significant amounts of tax
    > money in excess of tuition.
    > >-Joe

You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you had
better things to do.
I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and pages
and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting against
illegal immigration.
Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?

Joe Feise

fatman wrote on 12/20/2004 21:09:
    >
    > You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you had
    > better things to do.
    > I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and pages
    > and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting against
    > illegal immigration.
    > Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?

I guess retired college professors in fact don't have anything better to do...
The sad thing is that he perpetuates half-truths. I would have thought better of
college professors.
If his rants were in a scientific paper, the reviewers would rip it apart
because of claims without the data to back them up...

-Joe

Fatman

    > fatman wrote on 12/20/2004 21:09:
    > >
    > > You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you
    > > had
    > > better things to do.
    > > I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and
    > > pages
    > > and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting
    > > against
    > > illegal immigration.
    > > Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?
    > I guess retired college professors in fact don't have anything better
    > to do...
    > The sad thing is that he perpetuates half-truths. I would have thought
    > better of
    > college professors.
    > If his rants were in a scientific paper, the reviewers would rip it
    > apart
    > because of claims without the data to back them up...
    > -Joe

That's true, he should spend the same time writing a paper if he's so
correct, maybe he can put the police statistics in it which we're still
waiting for....

Oliver Costich

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 10:14:34 -0800, Joe Feise <> wrote:

    >Oliver Costich wrote on 12/20/2004 07:09:
    >>
    >> I was in CS for some of the grants, mostly from the US Army and Navy.
    >> There is not that much from the private sector compared to the public
    >> funds. It's tiny in CS and a pittance overall.
    >Well, that has changed considerably. Sun, Microsoft, IBM, and others are
    >nowadays rather big in giving grants.

Define big is terms of proportion versus tax monies. Regardless, it's
still miniscule overall.
    >>>>Then you tell me where it comes from. Some does come from alumni and
    >>>>corporate donors. What's the source of the rest?
    >>>Well, for example, the University of California budget has a large portion that
    >>>comes from services rendered, e.g., through the university hospitals...
    >>>See the UC budget here:
    >>>http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../515attach.pdf
    >>
    >>
    >> Many universities with hospitals do get funds from services. And some
    >> of them, like George Washington U spend most of it on real estate.
    >>
    >> The vast majority of universities receive significant amounts of tax
    >> money in excess of tuition.
    >Well, nice try. I did not dispute that. I disputed your claim of "the rest
    >coming from taxes." It is interesting to see how your wording changed ;-)

Almost of it does come from taxes in public universities. Tax sources
swamp everything else.

Word it howevver you like.

    >-Joe

Oliver Costich

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:09:37 +0000, fatman
<member26141@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >> On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:23:11 -0800, Joe Feise <> wrote:
    >> >Oliver Costich wrote on 12/18/2004 14:06:
    >> >> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 16:35:44 -0800, Joe Feise <>
    >> >> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>>Oliver Costich wrote on 12/17/2004 10:15:
    >> >>>>On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:19:01 GMT, "Rodo" <>
    >> >>>>wrote:
    >> >>>>>How would you calculate the burden on the education of an
    >> >>>>>undocumented
    >> >>>>>Alien (UA) vs. a citizen ? I know the state pays a big chunk of
    >> >>>>>my (a
    >> >>>>>citizen) college tuition. But, unless the UA is using grant money
    >> >>>>>to pay
    >> >>>>>his/her tuition, I can't see the difference. Specially if I and
    >> >>>>>the UA work
    >> >>>>>and pay taxes. Somehow this doesn't sound right (from the money
    >> >>>>>point of
    >> >>>>>view).
    >> >>>>>I'm not condoning UD. I'm just curious about the money issue
    >> >>>>>here. Sorry if
    >> >>>>>I've offended anyone.
    >> >>>>>Thanks
    >> >>>>No offense. But the costs of education are far higher than the
    >> >>>>taxes
    >> >>>>paid, especially by lower income people. At public universities,
    >> >>>>tuition is a tiny fraction of the full cost, the rest coming from
    >> >>>>taxes.
    >> >>>Not quite true. I find that you often perpetuate these half-truths.
    >> >>>Sure, public universities get tax money. But a significant portion
    >> >>>of their
    >> >>>budget comes from other sources, including taking a large
    >> >>>percentage from the
    >> >>>grants that are awarded to professors.
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >> Where do you think the grants come from? Primarily from Federal tax
    >> >> money. I know because when I was a college professor I had several
    >> >> of
    >> >> them and know full well how much the university takes for
    >> >> "overhead".
    >> >Depending on the area, there are lots of grants from private
    >> >companies,
    >> >especially in CS.
    >> I was in CS for some of the grants, mostly from the US Army and Navy.
    >> There is not that much from the private sector compared to the public
    >> funds. It's tiny in CS and a pittance overall.
    >> >> Then you tell me where it comes from. Some does come from alumni
    >> >> and
    >> >> corporate donors. What's the source of the rest?
    >> >Well, for example, the University of California budget has a large
    >> >portion that
    >> >comes from services rendered, e.g., through the university
    >> >hospitals...
    >> >See the UC budget here:
    >> >http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../nov04/515att-
    >> >ach.pdf
    >> Many universities with hospitals do get funds from services. And some
    >> of them, like George Washington U spend most of it on real estate.
    >> The vast majority of universities receive significant amounts of tax
    >> money in excess of tuition.
    >> >-Joe
    >You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you had
    >better things to do.
    >I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and pages
    >and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting against
    >illegal immigration.

Nine of the listings on page one of Google link to publications in
computer security. Maybe you can't use Googlr correctly.

    >Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?

You're Googling on my name and I have nothing to do? Pathetic!

We can't Google for yours because you have to hide behind a pseudonym.

Oliver Costich

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:40:56 -0800, Joe Feise <> wrote:

    >fatman wrote on 12/20/2004 21:09:
    >>
    >> You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you had
    >> better things to do.
    >> I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and pages
    >> and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting against
    >> illegal immigration.
    >> Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?
    >I guess retired college professors in fact don't have anything better to do...
    >The sad thing is that he perpetuates half-truths. I would have thought better of
    >college professors.

I suppose your "lots of" constitutes data. I see no data from you and
especially from fatman, who has a one track argument that the IMF is
responsible for all the worlds ills.

Notice also that the pubs are not from universities but reasearch
centers. Apparently you missed that "data".

    >If his rants were in a scientific paper, the reviewers would rip it apart
    >because of claims without the data to back them up...

You wouldn't know what a research paper is.

    >-Joe

Oliver Costich

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:31:42 +0000, fatman
<member26141@british_expats.com> wrote:

    >> fatman wrote on 12/20/2004 21:09:
    >> >
    >> > You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you
    >> > had
    >> > better things to do.
    >> > I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and
    >> > pages
    >> > and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting
    >> > against
    >> > illegal immigration.
    >> > Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?
    >> I guess retired college professors in fact don't have anything better
    >> to do...
    >> The sad thing is that he perpetuates half-truths. I would have thought
    >> better of
    >> college professors.
    >> If his rants were in a scientific paper, the reviewers would rip it
    >> apart
    >> because of claims without the data to back them up...
    >> -Joe
    >That's true, he should spend the same time writing a paper if he's so
    >correct, maybe he can put the police statistics in it which we're still
    >waiting for....


What police statistics would that be? I gave you links to the ones you
disputed. Perhaps your skills at that prallel your Google abilities.

Joe Feise

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004, Oliver Costich wrote:
    > On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:40:56 -0800, Joe Feise <> wrote:
    > >fatman wrote on 12/20/2004 21:09:
    > >>
    > >> You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you had
    > >> better things to do.
    > >> I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and pages
    > >> and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting against
    > >> illegal immigration.
    > >> Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?
    > >
    > >I guess retired college professors in fact don't have anything better to do...
    > >The sad thing is that he perpetuates half-truths. I would have thought better of
    > >college professors.
    > I suppose your "lots of" constitutes data. I see no data from you and
    > especially from fatman, who has a one track argument that the IMF is
    > responsible for all the worlds ills.

Huh? I provided a link to the UC budget...

    > >If his rants were in a scientific paper, the reviewers would rip it apart
    > >because of claims without the data to back them up...
    > You wouldn't know what a research paper is.

Oh, no arguments anymore, huh?

You have now earned a space in my killfile.

-Joe

Fatman

    > On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:31:42 +0000, fatman
    > <member26141@british_expats.com> wrote:
    > >> fatman wrote on 12/20/2004 21:09:
    > >> >
    > >> > You're still talking about this Oliver? funny that, I thought you
    > >> > had
    > >> > better things to do.
    > >> > I googled the name "Oliver Costich" and there are just pages and
    > >> > pages
    > >> > and tons of different sites of all the same thing, you ranting
    > >> > against
    > >> > illegal immigration.
    > >> > Why do you do it? Do you have nothing else better to do?
    > >> I guess retired college professors in fact don't have anything
    > >> better
    > >> to do...
    > >> The sad thing is that he perpetuates half-truths. I would have
    > >> thought
    > >> better of
    > >> college professors.
    > >> If his rants were in a scientific paper, the reviewers would rip it
    > >> apart
    > >> because of claims without the data to back them up...
    > >> -Joe
    > >That's true, he should spend the same time writing a paper if he's so
    > >correct, maybe he can put the police statistics in it which we're
    > >still
    > >waiting for....
    > What police statistics would that be? I gave you links to the ones you
    > disputed. Perhaps your skills at that prallel your Google abilities.

Oliver my position has never been that the IMF are responsible for all
the worlds ills, or even Mexico's, it has been that the IMF contribute
to them and we need to prevent US corporation et al's contribution
before we bitch about immigration.
It took me 5 seconds to google your name with the google toolbar at the
top of my computer. Now I'm sure you have other sites to go on and rant
about the same crap so I'll leave you to it. By the way where did you
show the police statistics? Nowhere. Perhaps whilst I'm brushing up on
my googling skills you can brush up on your spelling.