Helm

I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
or citizen;"

So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
matter is appreciated.

Thanks

Joe Feise

helm wrote on 05/11/06 22:42:

> I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
> able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
> Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
> citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
> does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
> Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
> old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:
>
> "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
> abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
> state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
> or citizen;"
>
> So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
> up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
> could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
> matter is appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>


A lot of other countries do not care what you say in front of US officials. They
still consider you to be their citizen, regardless of the oath statement.
For a lot more info, check out Rich Wales' Dual Citizenship FAQ:
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

-Joe

hioeuckj

Thanks for your reply. I will check out this site tomorrow. I have one
question, though. You seem to address the potential problems posed by
the other country when taking on another citizenship, in this case US
citizenship. But what about the US? What is the US' stand on this?

Thanks

sgallagher

helm wrote:
> I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
> able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
> Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
> citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
> does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
> Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
> old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:
> "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
> abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
> state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
> or citizen;"
> So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
> up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
> could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
> matter is appreciated.

What you have said is true, and the "renunciatory statement" of the
naturalization oath is as you have stated it. But, keep in mind, from
a legal standpoint that it is the laws of each individual country that
determine whether a person is or is not one of its citizens. Many
countries do not view the US naturalization oath's renunciatory
statement as having any legal effect under their laws. Therefore, just
because a person became a US citizen does not mean that he might not
still hold his original citizenship, in spite of this.

In other words, a person can become a US citizen, take the oath, and
intend to honor all parts of it including the renunciatory statement,
but if the original country says that he is still one of its citizens,
then he is still one of its citizens. The same way that a person's US
citizenship is determined by US law alone, a person's "other"
citizenship is determined by the "other" country's law alone.

For example, a British citizen must go to a British consulate and file
a request to give up his nationality. Making a statement of
renunciation before US officials does not meet this requirement, so
when someone from Britain takes US citizenship, he ends up keeping his
British citizenship also.

That is why many people who naturalize in the US, end up with dual
citizenship in spite of the renunciatory statement.

Keep in mind that there are some countries that WILL automatically take
away citizenship from a person who does take another citizenship. But
there are also many countries that do not. Even the US State
Department acknowledges that some naturalized US citizens may still be
holding their original citizenships and that this may make them subject
to requirements of that original country that the US might not be able
to protect them from if they were to ever travel back to the original
country. There are probably many naturalized US citizens who do not
realize that they still hold their original citizenship.

What you'd need to find out is whether the Netherlands will take away
your citizenship if you became a US citizen. If they do not take it
away, then you would end up having both citizenships. Make sure you
find out from a Dutch Consulate what would happen if you were to
naturalize in the US, and get something in writing if you can.

If it is allowed by the Netherlands, then once becoming a US citizen,
you would have to obey the laws that apply to the citizens of both
countries. You would have to enter the US on a US passport, and
identify yourself to US officials as being a US citizen.

Here's a good website that talks about the US policy on dual
nationality. It's not official, but it's written in easy to understand
language.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

Good luck,

Stephen Gallagher

sgallagher

> What you'd need to find out is whether the Netherlands

Don't know what got me into thinking you were Dutch when you said you
were Swiss. Sorry about that. I had just been thinking about a freind
of mine who is Dutch.

Anyway, just contact the Swiss Government to verify your nationality
issue.

I believe that they won't take away your citizenship if you naturalize
abroad, but you want to make sure.

Stephen

Voltes34

Important and Forgotten Words:
Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN



"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in
good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be
treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to
discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or
origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an
American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance
here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an
American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this
excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and
civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to
which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is
a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907


| helm wrote on 05/11/06 22:42:
|
| > I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
| > able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
| > Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
| > citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
| > does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
| > Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
| > old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:
| >
| > "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
| > abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
| > state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
| > or citizen;"
| >
| > So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
| > up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
| > could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
| > matter is appreciated.
| >
| > Thanks
| >
|
|

Helm

I have to say that all of this is a bit confusing. On one hand one
could make the point that the "renunciatory statement" is just a
statement. In other words it is something said at that point in time
but nothing that the newly naturalized citizen is supposed to pursue
ACTIVELY (by submitting an application to renounce citizenship of the
original country) after taking the oath. On the other hand assume that
the original country does allow its citizens to give up their
citizenships. In that case it could be claimed that the oath was not
taken in good faith and that therefore the person should/could be
stripped of the US citizenship at will at any point in the future.

Looking at the link
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1753.html given by one
of the respondents seems to take an official stance on this matter:

"...a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship
of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or
require a person to choose one citizenship or another."

This could suggest that indeed the former interpretation given above is
common practice, i.e. one does not have to actively go to the embassy
to renounce the original citizenship. Of course it could also be
claimed that the second sentence just covers the case where the
original country of citizenship does not allow its citizens to give up
their citizenship.

Also while there is NO US LAW saying that somebody has to CHOSE between
one or the other citizenship the OATH (in contrast to a law) REQUIRES
TO DO SO??!!!

I think the statement of Roosevelt quoted by somebody shows the moral
aspect of this. Of course, this is nothing binding and it also has to
be considered in that time's context which does not necessary apply
one-to-one today.

I guess my biggest worry is that the US might at some point in time
(for instance in case of war, etc) change their mind and strip me off
my US citizenship, kick me out of the country and not let me back in
(or only after giving up my original citizenship).

XRumerTest

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