hondacivic

It's in the news today. Because of confusion immigrants are canceling
their travel plans. People are told that without a PR Card or a
special Limited Use Travel Document that the carrier abroad will not
let you on board bound back for Canada.
There is presure within the government to put the PR Card requirements
"on hold".

Foreign carriers are already saying that all they'll look at is if
people have a valid passport and if they need a visit for the country
they're visiting, and that they can't get into the details whether the
people are in fact landed immigrants and then look for special cards
to see if special requirements are met.

In short, this whole PR Card can not be effective the way it is to be
implemented. It will cause huge scandals coming 2004 if they don't
"put it on hold".

Here's how I think the thought process of the people we look to to
govern:

Mr Jones: Terrorists pissed off the Americans.
Ms Jinks: I know, I heard, what will that mean for all of us?
Mr Jones: The Americans are starting to throw their weight around.
Ms Jinks: No kidding.
Mr Jones: We're expected not to stand by and do nothing.
Ms Jinks: What can we do?
Mr Jones: The Americans are saying the threat is from abroad.
Ms Jinks: I guess the immigrants are the threat.
Mr Jones: We can't get immigrants to carry around their passports.
Ms Jinks: Yes, they're too big. People carry around their drivers
licenses.
Mr Jones: Great idea, we can require people to apply for a special
Permanent Resident Card.
Ms Jinks: Sounds good, but how can we make people apply for one?
Mr Jones: We can simply require them to.
Ms Jinks: People will ignore it, or not know about it.
Mr Jones: We can tell people that the old immigrant paper will not be
allowed for travel. After all, terrorists will be "traveling", so the
key is "requiring" the card for entry.
Ms Jinks: What do we do with all the people at the airport though,
lock them all up?
Mr Jones: No, we make the commercial carriers forbid boarding without
the card.
Ms Jinks: But how do they know which people are immigrants and which
ones are tourists?
Mr Jones: Doesn't matter, let's just move ahead, it'll intimidate
people, and they will apply for the card. I know people will leak
through left and right, I realize that commercial carriers could never
filter people this way, but, we got to do something.
Ms Jinks: I want to go home before rush hour, can we wrap this up?
Mr Jones: Ok, we'll put this in effect, post it on our website. "The
airline in the country you are visiting will leave you standing at the
airport if you don't have a PR Card". There, done.

The government is losing huge credibility with this total and utter
lameheaded thinking. There is no way in the world that remote
carriers are going to sifting through people and pissing people off by
leaving them standing at airports. It is simply proposterous, and
liable to all kinds of lawsuits.

The government knows this, and I bet you $ 1,000,000 that the
government will put this whole "PR Card" requirement "on hold" to
prevent a huge scandal. They will truly appear completely imcompetent
if they don't.

In the meantime, myself, I was intimidated by this whole thing, and
don't have my PR Card yet. I canceled my plan to spend Christmas in
Holland. A "limited use travel document" would have required me to
travel all the way to Berlin (Germany). The Canadian Embassy in
Berlin is open between 9 and 11am. For a 2 week vacation to see my
parents and relatives, it is rediculous I have to sacrifice my time,
and worry during my vacation that I must prove I'm not a terrorist and
need special permission to return home.

How much headache has this caused for people? I canceled my plans,
how many other people have chosen not to travel back home for a
holiday or something?
I lived here for over 10 years, and although I could have picked up
Canadian Citizenship, I wasn't ready to give up my European passport.
I have lots of things to contribute to society, both to Canada and
Europe, I work very hard, never do anything wrong, help people all the
time, and government is slapping me around just in case I'm a
terrorist or something.
Well, you get my drift anyway, perhaps a little emotional here, but
I'm really quite pissed off.

Singhpro

We all understand your frustrations but to my best knowledge European
passport holders will still be able to travel without this card.



Go have a merry xmas with your family and dance an Irish Jig.











Originally posted by hondacivic

    > It's in the news today. Because of confusion immigrants are canceling

    > their travel plans. People are told that without a PR Card or a

    > special Limited Use Travel Document that the carrier abroad will not

    > let you on board bound back for Canada.

    > There is presure within the government to put the PR Card requirements

    > "on hold".


    > Foreign carriers are already saying that all they'll look at is if

    > people have a valid passport and if they need a visit for the country

    > they're visiting, and that they can't get into the details whether the

    > people are in fact landed immigrants and then look for special cards

    > to see if special requirements are met.


    > In short, this whole PR Card can not be effective the way it is to be

    > implemented. It will cause huge scandals coming 2004 if they don't

    > "put it on hold".


    > Here's how I think the thought process of the people we look to to

    > govern:


    > Mr Jones: Terrorists pissed off the Americans.

    > Ms Jinks: I know, I heard, what will that mean for all of us?

    > Mr Jones: The Americans are starting to throw their weight around.

    > Ms Jinks: No kidding.

    > Mr Jones: We're expected not to stand by and do nothing.

    > Ms Jinks: What can we do?

    > Mr Jones: The Americans are saying the threat is from abroad.

    > Ms Jinks: I guess the immigrants are the threat.

    > Mr Jones: We can't get immigrants to carry around their passports.

    > Ms Jinks: Yes, they're too big. People carry around their drivers

    > licenses.

    > Mr Jones: Great idea, we can require people to apply for a special

    > Permanent Resident Card.

    > Ms Jinks: Sounds good, but how can we make people apply for one?

    > Mr Jones: We can simply require them to.

    > Ms Jinks: People will ignore it, or not know about it.

    > Mr Jones: We can tell people that the old immigrant paper will not be

    > allowed for travel. After all, terrorists will be "traveling", so the

    > key is "requiring" the card for entry.

    > Ms Jinks: What do we do with all the people at the airport though,

    > lock them all up?

    > Mr Jones: No, we make the commercial carriers forbid boarding without

    > the card.

    > Ms Jinks: But how do they know which people are immigrants and which

    > ones are tourists?

    > Mr Jones: Doesn't matter, let's just move ahead, it'll intimidate

    > people, and they will apply for the card. I know people will leak

    > through left and right, I realize that commercial carriers could never

    > filter people this way, but, we got to do something.

    > Ms Jinks: I want to go home before rush hour, can we wrap this up?

    > Mr Jones: Ok, we'll put this in effect, post it on our website. "The

    > airline in the country you are visiting will leave you standing at the

    > airport if you don't have a PR Card". There, done.


    > The government is losing huge credibility with this total and utter

    > lameheaded thinking. There is no way in the world that remote

    > carriers are going to sifting through people and pissing people off by

    > leaving them standing at airports. It is simply proposterous, and

    > liable to all kinds of lawsuits.


    > The government knows this, and I bet you $ 1,000,000 that the

    > government will put this whole "PR Card" requirement "on hold" to

    > prevent a huge scandal. They will truly appear completely imcompetent

    > if they don't.


    > In the meantime, myself, I was intimidated by this whole thing, and

    > don't have my PR Card yet. I canceled my plan to spend Christmas in

    > Holland. A "limited use travel document" would have required me to

    > travel all the way to Berlin (Germany). The Canadian Embassy in

    > Berlin is open between 9 and 11am. For a 2 week vacation to see my

    > parents and relatives, it is rediculous I have to sacrifice my time,

    > and worry during my vacation that I must prove I'm not a terrorist and

    > need special permission to return home.


    > How much headache has this caused for people? I canceled my plans,

    > how many other people have chosen not to travel back home for a

    > holiday or something?

    > I lived here for over 10 years, and although I could have picked up

    > Canadian Citizenship, I wasn't ready to give up my European passport.

    > I have lots of things to contribute to society, both to Canada and

    > Europe, I work very hard, never do anything wrong, help people all the

    > time, and government is slapping me around just in case I'm a

    > terrorist or something.

    > Well, you get my drift anyway, perhaps a little emotional here, but

I'm really quite pissed off.

Andrew Miller

Why haven't you applied for PR Card in time? New immigration act has been
signed into law in November 2001 and since June 2002 CIC was running rather
large media campaign informing everyone about new PR Card requirement.
More - if you hold Dutch passport then you don't really need PR Card nor any
visa to board the plane to Canada. So, cancellation of your plans was not
only unnecessary but also a result of lack of attention to press
announcements and not reading the rules. Don't blame the government for your
own fault. No offence intended, just a reality check... :-)

Andrew Miller

P.S.

If by any chance your "European passport" is not from the country on
Canadian visitor visa waiver list and you need PR Card then government put
in place a procedure for expedited issuance of PR Card for those who didn't
read the news, didn't follow changes in law and have to travel - see here:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pr-card/urgent-cases.html

Khvganesh

Hi,



In my opinion, as long as you do not become a citizen of Canada, and
just be as an immigrant, then there is always a need for one to know
what is happening with immigration department as any rule may effect
one's situations.



Now, the simple question before blaming the government, why did not you
apply in advance for the PR Card. We can not say that the government did
not inform the immigrants properly, because it did. I did see
advertisements where there are time frames given for applying according
to the dates when you became landed immigrants. I do not think we can
expect the government to send you a personal note or email to apply.
There was lot of talk in each community of immigrants about this PR
card. Where were you when all of this happened.



If government puts this date limit on hold, guess what, for the new date
limit, there will be again some people who did not apply and complain.



It is all my opinion, no need of offence.



Bye for now,

Ganesh







Originally posted by hondacivic

    > It's in the news today. Because of confusion immigrants are canceling

    > their travel plans. People are told that without a PR Card or a

    > special Limited Use Travel Document that the carrier abroad will not

    > let you on board bound back for Canada.

    > There is presure within the government to put the PR Card requirements

    > "on hold".


    > Foreign carriers are already saying that all they'll look at is if

    > people have a valid passport and if they need a visit for the country

    > they're visiting, and that they can't get into the details whether the

    > people are in fact landed immigrants and then look for special cards

    > to see if special requirements are met.


    > In short, this whole PR Card can not be effective the way it is to be

    > implemented. It will cause huge scandals coming 2004 if they don't

    > "put it on hold".


    > Here's how I think the thought process of the people we look to to

    > govern:


    > Mr Jones: Terrorists pissed off the Americans.

    > Ms Jinks: I know, I heard, what will that mean for all of us?

    > Mr Jones: The Americans are starting to throw their weight around.

    > Ms Jinks: No kidding.

    > Mr Jones: We're expected not to stand by and do nothing.

    > Ms Jinks: What can we do?

    > Mr Jones: The Americans are saying the threat is from abroad.

    > Ms Jinks: I guess the immigrants are the threat.

    > Mr Jones: We can't get immigrants to carry around their passports.

    > Ms Jinks: Yes, they're too big. People carry around their drivers

    > licenses.

    > Mr Jones: Great idea, we can require people to apply for a special

    > Permanent Resident Card.

    > Ms Jinks: Sounds good, but how can we make people apply for one?

    > Mr Jones: We can simply require them to.

    > Ms Jinks: People will ignore it, or not know about it.

    > Mr Jones: We can tell people that the old immigrant paper will not be

    > allowed for travel. After all, terrorists will be "traveling", so the

    > key is "requiring" the card for entry.

    > Ms Jinks: What do we do with all the people at the airport though,

    > lock them all up?

    > Mr Jones: No, we make the commercial carriers forbid boarding without

    > the card.

    > Ms Jinks: But how do they know which people are immigrants and which

    > ones are tourists?

    > Mr Jones: Doesn't matter, let's just move ahead, it'll intimidate

    > people, and they will apply for the card. I know people will leak

    > through left and right, I realize that commercial carriers could never

    > filter people this way, but, we got to do something.

    > Ms Jinks: I want to go home before rush hour, can we wrap this up?

    > Mr Jones: Ok, we'll put this in effect, post it on our website. "The

    > airline in the country you are visiting will leave you standing at the

    > airport if you don't have a PR Card". There, done.


    > The government is losing huge credibility with this total and utter

    > lameheaded thinking. There is no way in the world that remote

    > carriers are going to sifting through people and pissing people off by

    > leaving them standing at airports. It is simply proposterous, and

    > liable to all kinds of lawsuits.


    > The government knows this, and I bet you $ 1,000,000 that the

    > government will put this whole "PR Card" requirement "on hold" to

    > prevent a huge scandal. They will truly appear completely imcompetent

    > if they don't.


    > In the meantime, myself, I was intimidated by this whole thing, and

    > don't have my PR Card yet. I canceled my plan to spend Christmas in

    > Holland. A "limited use travel document" would have required me to

    > travel all the way to Berlin (Germany). The Canadian Embassy in

    > Berlin is open between 9 and 11am. For a 2 week vacation to see my

    > parents and relatives, it is rediculous I have to sacrifice my time,

    > and worry during my vacation that I must prove I'm not a terrorist and

    > need special permission to return home.


    > How much headache has this caused for people? I canceled my plans,

    > how many other people have chosen not to travel back home for a

    > holiday or something?

    > I lived here for over 10 years, and although I could have picked up

    > Canadian Citizenship, I wasn't ready to give up my European passport.

    > I have lots of things to contribute to society, both to Canada and

    > Europe, I work very hard, never do anything wrong, help people all the

    > time, and government is slapping me around just in case I'm a

    > terrorist or something.

    > Well, you get my drift anyway, perhaps a little emotional here, but

I'm really quite pissed off.

Elmar

<> wrote in message
news:

    > It's in the news today. Because of confusion immigrants are canceling
    > their travel plans. People are told that without a PR Card or a
    > special Limited Use Travel Document that the carrier abroad will not
    > let you on board bound back for Canada.
    > There is presure within the government to put the PR Card requirements
    > "on hold".

<snipage of major part>

    > Well, you get my drift anyway, perhaps a little emotional here, but
    > I'm really quite pissed off.

"Hondacivic", I'll agree with your emotion. The way things are being
handled, is really quite pissing. Those bozos at CIC are not only unable to
make a decision based on real world scenerio, they are not even able to come
up with something concrete. The whole Immigration system is being screwed
around last 2-3 years. Making drastic change with the selection system then
applying retroactively, then change again, then again adding that it might
change in future and will be applied retroactively. Now, the PR card issue -
they don't have any definitive answer. To add salt to the injury, saying
that only PR's from non-visa exempt countries must show PR card to board a
carrier. See the news from The Toronto Star:

http://tinyurl.com/2hruk

This is totally ridiculous and discriminatory rule! What the heck are those
immigration officials smoking? Don't they see it is totally discriminatory
and out of the whack? Why one permanent resident from under-developed
country should require to produce PR card while a PR of some privileged
country should not? Laws should me made equal for everybody.

If the issue was with regular travel visa then it would be reasonable. It
could be said that there are some fear of those travelers from
under-developed countries not going back after their visa expire (from
statistics). But what is the issue with Permanent Residents? They are
already landed immigrant. No matter what country they are from all of them
should be treated equally - as permanent residents. Why do CIC think that
only citizens from under-developed countries are guilty and should be
punished? That is complete rubbish.

Now they are making thousands of people stranded outside of the country or
let them cancel the trip because of the confusion. Those bozos from the CIC
are completely incompetent, they have been proved over and over again. I
only wish those people from the CIC were in the same shoe as the immigrants
and make the decision.

Andrew Miller

Elmar,

Your outburst is unfortunate and in wrong direction. CIC will have no
problem admitting Permanent Residents without PR Card to Canada if they show
up at the port of entry and are able to document in any other way that they
have PR status. So, accusation of discrimination is misguided to say
politely - it is airlines and other commercial carriers that will not allow
you to board if you don't have Canadian visa, PR Card or Travel Document if
you are not from visa exempt country. You had 18 months to apply for PR
Card, were you in a coma for all that time or what? More, CIC introduced
procedure for expedite issuance of PR Card for people who overslept anyway -
so, they are doing everything they can to ease the problem for those who
didn't apply on time.

Elmar

"Andrew Miller" <> wrote in message
news:0U7Fb.9540$ss5.5001@clgrps13
    > Elmar,
    > Your outburst is unfortunate and in wrong direction. CIC will have no
    > problem admitting Permanent Residents without PR Card to Canada if they
    > show up at the port of entry and are able to document in any other way
    > that they have PR status. So, accusation of discrimination is misguided
    > to say politely - it is airlines and other commercial carriers that will
    > not allow you to board if you don't have Canadian visa, PR Card or Travel
    > Document if you are not from visa exempt country.

Andrew, I think your statement is contradictory. If CIC will admit a
permanent resident to Canada when they show up at the post of entry then why
the heck airlines and other carriers around the world would not allow him to
board in? I hope that you are not saying this rule were not dictated by CIC
or Canadian government. Just to say that this is set by airlines carriers,
is misleading at the best. No airlines will give a hoot about the
passenger's visa or legal documents unless the destination country ask them
to.

Taking your word that CIC will admit any PR if arrived at the POE, it is
clear that CIC is making a discriminatory rule to ask airlines and other
commercial carriers only to reject PR's from non-visa exempt countries. In
what basis those visa-exempt country citizens can board the airlines? If
they are returning to Canada they should produce PR card. If they are coming
as a visitor then it is reasonable to let them in just based on visa-exempt
country citizen status. But then, they have to be admitted in Canada as
visitor not as PR. One can not simply claim as a visitor (or anything except
PR) to the airlines and claim as returning resident at POE on the same trip.

    > You had 18 months to
    > apply for PR Card, were you in a coma for all that time or what?

Where did you read in my previous post that I didn't apply for PR card yet?
I already have my PR card and it was done soonest I was eligible to apply.

    > More, CIC introduced procedure for expedite issuance of PR Card for people
    > who overslept anyway - so, they are doing everything they can to ease the
    > problem for those who didn't apply on time.

It's not what they are doing to accommodate something. It is their
incompetency not to take action in timely and non-discriminative fashion.
These things should be planned well ahead. They should either allow
permanent residents to return without PR card or reject them. And should
make every employee at CIC and commercial carriers know the clear cut
answer. Look at the news on the newspapers recently, CIC employees
themselves don't know the answer clearly, making thousands of people to
cancel their trips.

Andrew Miller

What you read in newspapers is just the opinion of misinformed reporters
looking for sensation, nothing else.

Elmar

"Andrew Miller" <> wrote in message
news:RtaFb.10603$ss5.3210@clgrps13
    > What you read in newspapers is just the opinion of misinformed reporters
    > looking for sensation, nothing else.

Do you have any proof to back up your statement? Why would I take your words
and not believe any media or what I am reading in the newsgroups and
Internet? The way CIC is handling immigration matters last couple of years,
it is very clear that they are not competent.

On top of that, what do you say about the discriminating PR card rule based
on one's citizenship? It is just unacceptable from any logical point of
view.