Earl Evleth

Of course this is big news today, canceling a number
of Air France Flights out of Paris to LA is no small
operation taken in panic. Definitely a precautions.


One does wonder that in seizing a flight to LA it
would ever arrive. The idea now is to down any
terrorist seized flight long before it reaches
a potential target. Crashing into a local
target, like the American Embassy or the Eiffel
toweer seems like a more likely target.

Next, how good is security on people getting abord
a commercial flight these days? We fly out of
Roissy several times a year, actually three times
in 2003. Air France to Greece in September,
Air France to Saint Martin in April and American
Air Lines to Boston in June.


American gave us a grilling, not at all liking
our dual nationality situation which they found
out about by asking "where are your carte de sejours"
since our US passports were not stamped. 30 minutes
of questioning got "this" couple married 48 years
aboard the plane. Air France does not question
and naturally the carryons are looked at with
a little more care than several years ago.

We on this side of the security fence don't really know
what is going on effectively on the other side.
But Air France, canceling a lot of flights, is not
acting half heartedly, something scared them.

So it scares the rest of us. The Orange alerts
in the US have happened so often one yawns, but
for Air France this costs a lot of money. That alone
makes it serious.

Earl

Go Fig

In article <BC106AB4.20973%>,
Earl Evleth <> wrote:

    > Of course this is big news today, canceling a number
    > of Air France Flights out of Paris to LA is no small
    > operation taken in panic. Definitely a precautions.
    >
    >
    > One does wonder that in seizing a flight to LA it
    > would ever arrive. The idea now is to down any
    > terrorist seized flight long before it reaches
    > a potential target. Crashing into a local
    > target, like the American Embassy or the Eiffel
    > toweer seems like a more likely target.
    >
    > Next, how good is security on people getting abord
    > a commercial flight these days? We fly out of
    > Roissy several times a year, actually three times
    > in 2003. Air France to Greece in September,
    > Air France to Saint Martin in April and American
    > Air Lines to Boston in June.
    >
    >
    > American gave us a grilling, not at all liking
    > our dual nationality situation which they found
    > out about by asking "where are your carte de sejours"
    > since our US passports were not stamped. 30 minutes
    > of questioning got "this" couple married 48 years
    > aboard the plane. Air France does not question
    > and naturally the carryons are looked at with
    > a little more care than several years ago.
    >
    > We on this side of the security fence don't really know
    > what is going on effectively on the other side.
    > But Air France, canceling a lot of flights, is not
    > acting half heartedly, something scared them.
    >
    > So it scares the rest of us. The Orange alerts
    > in the US have happened so often one yawns, but
    > for Air France this costs a lot of money. That alone
    > makes it serious.
    >
    > Earl
    >

It is my understanding that the French PM ordered these cancelled, AF
had no choice in the matter.

You talked about passenger security checking procedures, yet from what
I've read the threat is believed to be coming from those who have
infiltrated AF itself as employees... is this not the suggestion in what
you have read too ?

On this side we remember that the shoe bomber was denied access, but
then housed at a hotel and then was put on the next flight out.

jay
Thu, Dec 25, 2003
mailto:

Earl Evleth

On 25/12/03 11:02, in article
gofig-, "Go Fig" <>
wrote:

    > It is my understanding that the French PM ordered these cancelled, AF
    > had no choice in the matter.
    >
    > You talked about passenger security checking procedures, yet from what
    > I've read the threat is believed to be coming from those who have
    > infiltrated AF itself as employees... is this not the suggestion in what
    > you have read too?

I did not see that mentioned, I must have missed it.

However, there has been a lot of disinformation abut the French in general
since their disagreement with the US (like French passports, recent weaponry
in iraq) and some of this is Pentagon inspired.

As for Air France employees, I would doubt they were likely candidates
for an islamic based plot in the flight personnel. I suspect there are
no ethnic Arabs employed as pilots or co-pilots. They should have been
all reviewed via the DST.

Ground personnel are another issue, a lot people with Arab backgrounds work
on the site. In fact trying to tag one baggage handler as an Islamic
terrorist was an almost successful plot a year ago. "Somebody" reported
seeing him handling guns in the underground parking area as Roissy 2, from
the back of his car. The informer gave the license number and the police
found both guns and explosives in the man's car. Knowing how the French
police did things, this was slam dunk. The man was an ethnic Arab,
but very French. The terrorist instruction judge was called in since
is the perfect kind of case to unzip a terrorist ring. But he could
not unzip the case, the "suspect" did not have the profile (other
than being a Beur). So the police started looking at the informer
and cell phone communications. The informer was a friend of a detective
who in turn was a close friend of the accused death man`s wife. In turned
out to be a family plot to gain revenge on the accused, who they felt
had killed their daughter. If they had planted drugs the police
would not have looked further, he would be off to prison for a long time.

The point is that the airport employees, the "lower downs" could
be the point of entry. Planting weapons or devices on the plane
by the ground crew is possibly the weakest point.

    > On this side we remember that the shoe bomber was denied access, but
    > then housed at a hotel and then was put on the next flight out.

I also should be pointed out that Reid made a flight to Israel and was
considered suspect. They even seated an Israeli agent next to time
on that flight. The French police did not allow him on board the
first day because they questioned him over and over. He had no
baggage and did not look right. However, they missed the heel of his shoe
on looking him over.

So both the French (in particular) and the Israelis missed Reid,
but that door is probably closed in the future.

The Reid case shook up the French police and even I was picked up
for questioning on exiting an internet café in the Latin Quarter.
I happened to post on what "devices" were being used in Israel by the
terrorists, basing my comments on an article in Time magazine.
That café was monitored and so they picked my up and grilled me
for about 20 minutes on my posting. Since I am a retired CNRS
scientist, they did not pursue my case. Years ago I had an
encounter with the DST over the fact that I was delivering a lot
of "paper" to Cuban Embassy officials. They had obviously tapped
my phone. However, my interactions with the Cubans was innocent
and part of a CNRS approved exchange with Cuban scientists. What
impressed me about the DST is that they did not waste any more time
on me, just as the French police did not drag me down to the
commissariat for a night's "garde a vue" to sweat more information out of
me.

Historically the FBI has wasted a lot of time chasing the wrong people.
I just finished a book on they and the INS trying to get Einstein deported.
Too red for the time. And of course, they had Reagan working for them
as an informer in Hollywood too. A friend in charge of a English as a
foreign language program at an Eastern US university had a recent run in
with an FBI agent trying to get information on the sly about one
of their students, a Korean, who was the son of an important Korean
political personality. The FBI may have reverted to the days of
Hoover, using the Bureau`s resources for "any old thing". Basically
the message should be "it's the terrorists, stupid".

I think the French have done this. If a plot exists the French
will unravel it in several weeks. They are fine toothing it now.

Earl

Jcoulter

Go Fig <> wrote in news:gofig-47B2E3.02021625122003@news-
60.giganews.com:


    >>
    >
    > It is my understanding that the French PM ordered these cancelled, AF
    > had no choice in the matter.
    >
    >
    > jay
    > Thu, Dec 25, 2003
    > mailto:
    >

And the French PM is in Lockstep with the US? That the French at any level
believed US intelligence enough to take this step is nothing short of
incredible - somebody was worried, and Earl makes sense.

Go Fig

In article <Xns945C59E16F66E225stellarcomcast.ne@204.127.199. 17>,
jcoulter <> wrote:

    > Go Fig <> wrote in news:gofig-47B2E3.02021625122003@news-
    > 60.giganews.com:
    >
    > >
    >
    > >>
    > >
    > > It is my understanding that the French PM ordered these cancelled, AF
    > > had no choice in the matter.
    > >
    > >
    > > jay
    > > Thu, Dec 25, 2003
    > > mailto:
    > >
    >
    > And the French PM is in Lockstep with the US? That the French at any level
    > believed US intelligence enough to take this step is nothing short of
    > incredible - somebody was worried, and Earl makes sense.

What I got by implication was that it is serious because AF was losing
$$$, AF had no choice in the matter.

Do AF have a 'hardened' cockpit ?

jay
Thu, Dec 25, 2003
mailto:

Earl Evleth

On 25/12/03 15:02, in article
gofig-, "Go Fig" <>
wrote:

    > Do AF have a 'hardened' cockpit ?

I just hope they are not soft-headed.

We take Air France by choice when we can. But the next trip to the
US I a month is on AA since they have a nice trip (Paris => Miami,
Fort Lauderdale => Boston, and Boston => London where we take
the day flight). The air fare is not expensive but it reguires
some expensive extra nights in hotels. London is OK since the
city has great book stores. We will take the TGV back to Paris.

What I appreciate with Air France is that years ago it was the only
air company to treat my dog well. They served him up sliced duck
for dinner. This was on first class but was a world class act.

Earl

Donna Evleth

Dans l'article <gofig->, Go Fig
<> a écrit :


    > You talked about passenger security checking procedures, yet from what
    > I've read the threat is believed to be coming from those who have
    > infiltrated AF itself as employees... is this not the suggestion in what
    > you have read too ?

What I read in this morning's Parisien said the following: "The Americans
may presently fear an infiltration of possible Al-Qaeda agents into pilot
crews of foreign airline companies." Air France was not singled out.

Donna Evleth

Howard N . Lute

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 06:02:09 -0800, Go Fig <> wrote:

    >In article <Xns945C59E16F66E225stellarcomcast.ne@204.127.199. 17>,
    > jcoulter <> wrote:
    >> Go Fig <> wrote in news:gofig-47B2E3.02021625122003@news-
    >> 60.giganews.com:
    >>
    >> >
    >>
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> > It is my understanding that the French PM ordered these cancelled, AF
    >> > had no choice in the matter.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > jay
    >> > Thu, Dec 25, 2003
    >> > mailto:
    >> >
    >>
    >> And the French PM is in Lockstep with the US? That the French at any level
    >> believed US intelligence enough to take this step is nothing short of
    >> incredible - somebody was worried, and Earl makes sense.
    >What I got by implication was that it is serious because AF was losing
    >$$$, AF had no choice in the matter.
    >Do AF have a 'hardened' cockpit ?
Yes and...the US forced their hand in the matter by disallowing the
use of US airspace for those jets. If they had enterred it they were
subject to shoot down orders. Amazing but true friends. This stuff is
serious.
H


    >jay
    >Thu, Dec 25, 2003
    >mailto:

Retired Teacher, Terrible Mechanic, Worse Plumber!
LPFM Page: http://home.att.net/~optcamel/fmradio.htm

Mxsmanic

Earl Evleth writes:

    > But Air France, canceling a lot of flights, is not
    > acting half heartedly, something scared them.

Air France is not immune to hysteria.

    > So it scares the rest of us.

Speak for yourself.

Mxsmanic

Donna Evleth writes:

    > Air France was not singled out.

Several articles I have read have specifically mentioned France or even
Air France.