Jean-Marc Lavoie

My wife and I (63 & 72) are actually planning a trip to Italy next spring
and we would like to have experienced travellers advice on our Italy
travel plan.
We have already travelled in Europe on guided tours, but we now prefer to
travel alone at our own pace, with our own itinerary and discover our own
sights to see.
My wife understand Italian and can "parlare Italiano un poco".
We expect to spend one month to visit the great cities like Rome,
Florence, Venice and Milan. In or between each of these towns, we will
next decide to visit or not other cities (Naples, Capri, Assise, Pise,
Sienne).
Our major interest in traveling consist in art(music, paintings, ....),
history, food specialties, observing the local way of living and of course
the nature landscapes.
Since a few years, we're used to stay in B&Bs when we travel. So, I've
spotted some good references on Internet and expect to contact them on our
way at the appropriate time.I plan to take my laptop computer wih me so it
will be easy to make my reservations.
Busses wll be our first choice way of travelling. Budget-wise, is an avg.
of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation (80)
and Visits (60).
We will appreciate to receive your comments and suggestions on the
"realistic" aspect of our plan.
Thanks
Jean-Marc

barney

In article <jmlavoie->,
(Jean-Marc Lavoie) wrote:

    > Budget-wise, is an
    > avg.
    > of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation
    > (80)
    > and Visits (60).

Ample. You might end up spending a little more than $80/day on
accommodation in some places, but you will spend way less than $80/day on
transportation.

Barbara Vaughan

Jean-Marc Lavoie wrote:
    >
    > My wife and I (63 & 72) are actually planning a trip to Italy next spring
    > and we would like to have experienced travellers advice on our Italy
    > travel plan.
    > We have already travelled in Europe on guided tours, but we now prefer to
    > travel alone at our own pace, with our own itinerary and discover our own
    > sights to see.
    > My wife understand Italian and can "parlare Italiano un poco".
    > We expect to spend one month to visit the great cities like Rome,
    > Florence, Venice and Milan. In or between each of these towns, we will
    > next decide to visit or not other cities (Naples, Capri, Assise, Pise,
    > Sienne).

One month sounds like a good amount of time for a tour like this. I
suggest that while you are in each city, you decide to take short side
trips to smaller towns and cities, both to see a more typical Italian
life style away from the large mass of tourists, and also to see some of
the art that is dispersed in smaller towns. Assisi is very beautiful; it
could be seen reasonably well on a day trip from Florence or Rome. Pisa
can also be seen fairly well on a day trip. There's a lot to see in
Siena, but you can see a good deal of it in one day. Other good one- or
two-day trips are:

from Rome: Tivoli, Ostia Antica, Orvieto
from Florence: Arezzo, Fiesole
from Venice: Ravenna, Padova, Verona

    > Since a few years, we're used to stay in B&Bs when we travel. So, I've
    > spotted some good references on Internet and expect to contact them on our
    > way at the appropriate time.I plan to take my laptop computer wih me so it
    > will be easy to make my reservations.

I am planning today or tomorrow to post something about B&B's, which are
a fairly new phenomenon in Italy. Keep an eye out for it.

You might also want to consider pensiones, and smaller hotels. I have
found the French series Guide Routard very useful on a recent trip to
Spain. Many of the inexpensive places it recommended were very charming.
I've never seen their guide to Italy. (I live in Italy, by the way.)

    > Busses wll be our first choice way of travelling. Budget-wise, is an avg.
    > of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation (80)
    > and Visits (60).

It is very unlikely that you would spend 80 euros a day on
transportation, nor 60 euros on visits. On the other hand, you may well
spend more than 80 on lodging.

The bus network in Italy is not terribly well organized. It's difficult
to get accurate information ahead of time in order to make plans. There
are many small regional companies. Train travel is very inexpensive by
European standards, and busses are even cheaper.

I suggest that if you want to visit Florence and Venice, that you come
fairly early in the spring. These cities get very crowded with tourists
by summer, or even late spring. In fact, for visitin Florence, I prefer
winter.

Italy is a very easy country to visit on your own. I hope you have a
wonderful trip. If there's anything else I can help with, please let me
know. However, I prefer not to answer travel questions by private email.

Barbara

Giovanni Drogo

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003, Jean-Marc Lavoie wrote:

    > We expect to spend one month to visit the great cities like Rome,
    > Florence, Venice and Milan. In or between each of these towns, we will
    > next decide to visit or not other cities

I believe you should decode according to which places are close (day
trips) or on the route between your main cities.

    > Our major interest in traveling consist in art(music, paintings,
    > ....), history, food specialties, observing the local way of living
    > and of course the nature landscapes.

This seems to indicate that, beside visiting the main museums in the
cities of the "turisdotto" (*) you mention, you'd appreciate more the
"minor centres", of which there are plenty.

(*) maybe your wife understands. "Turisdotto" is a word mocked up on
"acquedotto" and "oleodotto" and means more or less "tourist pipeline".
It is sometimes used in the publications of the Italian Touring Club
(TCI ; http://www.touringclub.it) to indicate the standard route that
foreign tourists take : Rome-Florence-Venice. TCI is doing in recent
years a great job to solicit visiting minor centres instead.

    > Since a few years, we're used to stay in B&Bs when we travel. So, I've

I used B&B a lot in the UK when I lived there, but here in Italy they
appeared only recently, and I've never had the opportunity to use one.
I know however that TCI has published a guide/directory of italian B&B.

TCI also publishes excellent maps and guides (both for Italy and for
abroad, in general on its own, but sometimes also in conjunction with
foreign publishers like Routard or Gallimard), but of course most of
them are in Italian, but some appeared also in English. The top of the
top are the Red regional guides, but they are also quite expensive even
for TCI members. The green (regional or provincial ones) are what I
generally use and prefer, otherwise the 5-volume "Rapid guide". Maybe
their web sites lists the ones in English, and the bookshops who sell
them.

Coming back to accomodation, another possibility (also something I've
never exploited) are "agriturismi". These are sort of B&B in country
location at farmer's places. I've been in some of those places with
organized tours (guess by whom ... TCI !) for eating, but never used
them for own trips (although my mother, 79, would like it). The reason
is that they are in country locations and we do not drive.

    > Busses wll be our first choice way of travelling. Budget-wise, is an avg.

You will be lost if you think to use buses for long distance travel.

There is no such thing as a regular long distance bus network in Italy,
at least in the North. The typical long distance or interregional travel
here is done by train (*). The website of trenitalia.it can be used to
get timetable information (or even better use the German site at
http://home.arcor.de/e.lauterbach/au...fplanx-en.html, faster and
easier). Trains are reasonably cheap although not necessarily for our
standards. Beware there are 2-3 price ranges. One is the standard fares
for the (slower) regional and interregional trains, another one (more
expensive) for IC trains, and the most expensive for ES (Eurostar). Most
long distance connections between large cities are by ES only, or IC are
slower. Medium size cities are on IC lines. If you are staying longer
you might consider rail passes of the sort available abroad to
foreigners, kilometric tickets, or AmicoTreno (I believe this costs 69
Eur and entitles you a discount on "green trains", mainly off-peak
interregional and regional trains).

Better ask on misc.transport.rail.europe for up tp date and accurate
information.

The rail network can take you almost eveywhere you may think to go in
the North and the Centre (you are not planning to go to the South where
it is worse, and buses may dominate).

(*) on Monday evening on the TV there was a short theatre piece
(monologue) by Marco Paolini titled "Illegal rail". He started showing
the Italian and US rail timetables. Now despite the fact we use to
complain about our rail system, our timetables was a book at least 5
times as thick as the US one, and Italy is a smaller country.

Concerning buses, you will surely be using local buses to go to minor
places not served bt the train, and (together with trams and
underground) to move in cities. Urban networks are generally good.
Typical ticket is 1 euro for 1 hour or more, but day passes may be
convenient (Venice and its boat network is an exception, it is much more
expensive and a pass is definitely a good choice ... or you walk).

You will have difficulty in using interurban buses, specially to collect
information on the timetables and bus stops. They are not coordinated
and run by different companies/agencies. It could be easier in medium
size cities which have a bus station than in a big city where buses stop
in many different places

I would advise to apply for information to the main tourist office in
each city (identified by a big "i" and a name like APT or similar). You
will find helpful personnel which also speaks English.

    > of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation (80)
    > and Visits (60).

Transportation will be cheaper.

Visits depend on how many and where. In most places municipal museums
are free, state museums are not (but if you are older than 65 entrance
is free ... I'm not sure if that's only for EU citizens). Churches are
generally free but in Venice. IN some places there are cards for
entrance to many museums and public transport.

Eating : consider that it could be easy to have lunch for a small sum,
at a buffet, or tavola calda, but a real restaurant in the evening will
definitely be more expensive. A 20 eur dinner is considered a bargain.
Be careful with restaurants in tourist places, try to go where the
locals go, or you will be "peeled".

Concerning accomodation, I've no idea about B&B but I've got the
impression they tend to favour a "charme" accomodation and won't be that
cheaper w.r.t hotels. On the other hand these may vary a lot.

It would be difficult to find a hotel room in a decent hotel in a large
city for less than 80-100 Eur (or much more) on the other hand in
tourist resorts and off-season you can find full-board accomodation in
nice family pensions even for less than that.

Note that Easter, 25 April and 1 May are sort of high season.

Ian Millward

Jean-Marc,

Have a look at http://www.dolcecasa.it/ for B&B.

I have used them on and off for a few years and have always found them to be
of a high quality.

Ian Millward
Edinburgh

Barbara Vaughan

Giovanni Drogo wrote:
    >
    > (*) on Monday evening on the TV there was a short theatre piece
    > (monologue) by Marco Paolini titled "Illegal rail". He started showing
    > the Italian and US rail timetables. Now despite the fact we use to
    > complain about our rail system, our timetables was a book at least 5
    > times as thick as the US one, and Italy is a smaller country.

It's certainly true that Italian national passenger rail is much more
extensive than US nstional passenger rail. (It also is a lot more
punctual). One of the problems with rail service in the US is that vast
areas of the country are too thinly populated to support rail service,
or indeed any sort of mass transport. Another, is of course, that
government funding is not forthcoming for passenger rail.

However, it wouldn't really be fair to compare national timetables of
the US with the timetables of Ferrovia dello Stato. Much of the rail
service in the US is run at the state or regional level, and their
timetables would all be published separately. For example, I lived in
central New Jersey, about equidistant from New York and Philadelphia.
There was rail service to both cities, but the vast majority of the
trains were not on the national network, but on regional New Jersey and
Philadelphia networks. The same is true in the vicinity of other large
cities.

Barbara




    >
    > Concerning buses, you will surely be using local buses to go to minor
    > places not served bt the train, and (together with trams and
    > underground) to move in cities. Urban networks are generally good.
    > Typical ticket is 1 euro for 1 hour or more, but day passes may be
    > convenient (Venice and its boat network is an exception, it is much more
    > expensive and a pass is definitely a good choice ... or you walk).
    >
    > You will have difficulty in using interurban buses, specially to collect
    > information on the timetables and bus stops. They are not coordinated
    > and run by different companies/agencies. It could be easier in medium
    > size cities which have a bus station than in a big city where buses stop
    > in many different places
    >
    > I would advise to apply for information to the main tourist office in
    > each city (identified by a big "i" and a name like APT or similar). You
    > will find helpful personnel which also speaks English.
    >
    > > of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation (80)
    > > and Visits (60).
    >
    > Transportation will be cheaper.
    >
    > Visits depend on how many and where. In most places municipal museums
    > are free, state museums are not (but if you are older than 65 entrance
    > is free ... I'm not sure if that's only for EU citizens). Churches are
    > generally free but in Venice. IN some places there are cards for
    > entrance to many museums and public transport.
    >
    > Eating : consider that it could be easy to have lunch for a small sum,
    > at a buffet, or tavola calda, but a real restaurant in the evening will
    > definitely be more expensive. A 20 eur dinner is considered a bargain.
    > Be careful with restaurants in tourist places, try to go where the
    > locals go, or you will be "peeled".
    >
    > Concerning accomodation, I've no idea about B&B but I've got the
    > impression they tend to favour a "charme" accomodation and won't be that
    > cheaper w.r.t hotels. On the other hand these may vary a lot.
    >
    > It would be difficult to find a hotel room in a decent hotel in a large
    > city for less than 80-100 Eur (or much more) on the other hand in
    > tourist resorts and off-season you can find full-board accomodation in
    > nice family pensions even for less than that.
    >
    > Note that Easter, 25 April and 1 May are sort of high season.
    >
    > --
    > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > is a newsreading account used by more persons to
    > avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
    > Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.

Tile

well
many more towns are interesting..
from the north
Milano ( do not lsoe yr tiem there.. it is just a busines town)
Verona and garda lake
Mantova
Bologna
Ferrara
Ravenna
Urbino ( raphael town)
Firenze
san gimignano
pisa
volterra
arezzo
siena
assisi
gubbio
perugia
orvieto
and then down south

As an Italian
I would hire a car
price about 35 eur per day depending on length of hire.
I normally hire a small apartment to use as a base
for my excursions
It is about 50 eur day and allows you to cook
good food including wine will not cost you more than 10 eur per person per
day
if you cook yrselff I mean.

it is easy to find such apartments in the web.
otherwise..
the cost of a normal 3 stars hotel room is about
50 eur /day ( mor ein big towns.. but if you have a car you do not need to
sleep in a big town, where a
car will be useless )
a good meal goes from 25 to 35 eur person
again depending on what you eat.
a good pizza will cost you about 5 to 8 eur
a litre of wine between 5 to 10 eur
( vino della casa.. not bottled wine )
gasoline is about1 eur litre.
1 litre is about 10kms by a normal car ( average )
add to this the costs of toll roads ( a must in Italy)
and all tickets to museums, castles, historical places and so on.
Please be aware that every village or town in italy
is a small museum.. and can boast from 2000 to
1000 yrs of history.. or even more.
so. buy a very very good guide book
study an itinerary
plan a base from where you will make excursions
for about a week.
To make you an exanple
I am going to hire an apartment in Passignano
( trasimeno lake ) for my excursions to Umbria and lower Tuscany.
I hired an apartment in Paestum for my excursions to Naples Ischia Capri
Sorrento and so on.

of course. it depends on what you would like to see. and how many kms per
day you are willing to drive.
But beleive me
buses are not reliable
and trains are good only for major cities-..
"Jean-Marc Lavoie" <> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:jmlavoie-...
    > My wife and I (63 & 72) are actually planning a trip to Italy next spring
    > and we would like to have experienced travellers advice on our Italy
    > travel plan.
    > We have already travelled in Europe on guided tours, but we now prefer to
    > travel alone at our own pace, with our own itinerary and discover our own
    > sights to see.
    > My wife understand Italian and can "parlare Italiano un poco".
    > We expect to spend one month to visit the great cities like Rome,
    > Florence, Venice and Milan. In or between each of these towns, we will
    > next decide to visit or not other cities (Naples, Capri, Assise, Pise,
    > Sienne).
    > Our major interest in traveling consist in art(music, paintings, ....),
    > history, food specialties, observing the local way of living and of course
    > the nature landscapes.
    > Since a few years, we're used to stay in B&Bs when we travel. So, I've
    > spotted some good references on Internet and expect to contact them on our
    > way at the appropriate time.I plan to take my laptop computer wih me so it
    > will be easy to make my reservations.
    > Busses wll be our first choice way of travelling. Budget-wise, is an avg.
    > of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation (80)
    > and Visits (60).
    > We will appreciate to receive your comments and suggestions on the
    > "realistic" aspect of our plan.
    > Thanks
    > Jean-Marc

Terryo

Lucky you. I did a month in Italy last year -- Rome, Florence, the
Cinque Terre, and Venice. The Cinque Terre is beautiful for
landscapes, but won't satisfy your interest in art and museums.

Consider taking trains, rather than buses, between the major cities
(though buses may be necessary if you go to smaller towns in Tuscany
and Umbria). The Italian train system is very convenient and
inexpensive. I would say $80 a day for transportation is VERY high
(especially since you won't be traveling EVERY day). Even $40 a day
would be a high daily average for two people, assuming you are going
to stay in some places at least 3 or 4 days. (Of course, it's a
different story if you're including the cost of your flight to and
from Italy in that daily average.)

$80 for food is also high, unless you are planning to eat your dinners
in the very best restaurants. I generally had breakfast included in
my hotel, grabbed lunch on the fly (panini, pizza, whatever was
handy), and splurged a bit at dinner, but never spent even close to
$40 a day, and averaged about $20 a day.

Have fun.

Go Fig

In article <>,
Barbara Vaughan <> wrote:

    > Giovanni Drogo wrote:
    > >
    > > (*) on Monday evening on the TV there was a short theatre piece
    > > (monologue) by Marco Paolini titled "Illegal rail". He started showing
    > > the Italian and US rail timetables. Now despite the fact we use to
    > > complain about our rail system, our timetables was a book at least 5
    > > times as thick as the US one, and Italy is a smaller country.
    >
    > It's certainly true that Italian national passenger rail is much more
    > extensive than US nstional passenger rail. (It also is a lot more
    > punctual). One of the problems with rail service in the US is that vast
    > areas of the country are too thinly populated to support rail service,
    > or indeed any sort of mass transport. Another, is of course, that
    > government funding is not forthcoming for passenger rail.
    >
    > However, it wouldn't really be fair to compare national timetables of
    > the US with the timetables of Ferrovia dello Stato.

Or at least today. But back in the 20s, 30s, 40s and even the 50s...
rail was king in the U.S. and was a leader and innovator. Really from
the 1850s-1950s.

jay
Fri, Oct 10, 2003
mailto:





Much of the rail
    > service in the US is run at the state or regional level, and their
    > timetables would all be published separately. For example, I lived in
    > central New Jersey, about equidistant from New York and Philadelphia.
    > There was rail service to both cities, but the vast majority of the
    > trains were not on the national network, but on regional New Jersey and
    > Philadelphia networks. The same is true in the vicinity of other large
    > cities.
    >
    > Barbara
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > Concerning buses, you will surely be using local buses to go to minor
    > > places not served bt the train, and (together with trams and
    > > underground) to move in cities. Urban networks are generally good.
    > > Typical ticket is 1 euro for 1 hour or more, but day passes may be
    > > convenient (Venice and its boat network is an exception, it is much more
    > > expensive and a pass is definitely a good choice ... or you walk).
    > >
    > > You will have difficulty in using interurban buses, specially to collect
    > > information on the timetables and bus stops. They are not coordinated
    > > and run by different companies/agencies. It could be easier in medium
    > > size cities which have a bus station than in a big city where buses stop
    > > in many different places
    > >
    > > I would advise to apply for information to the main tourist office in
    > > each city (identified by a big "i" and a name like APT or similar). You
    > > will find helpful personnel which also speaks English.
    > >
    > > > of 300$/day enough for the B&B(80), Food(80), Overall transportation (80)
    > > > and Visits (60).
    > >
    > > Transportation will be cheaper.
    > >
    > > Visits depend on how many and where. In most places municipal museums
    > > are free, state museums are not (but if you are older than 65 entrance
    > > is free ... I'm not sure if that's only for EU citizens). Churches are
    > > generally free but in Venice. IN some places there are cards for
    > > entrance to many museums and public transport.
    > >
    > > Eating : consider that it could be easy to have lunch for a small sum,
    > > at a buffet, or tavola calda, but a real restaurant in the evening will
    > > definitely be more expensive. A 20 eur dinner is considered a bargain.
    > > Be careful with restaurants in tourist places, try to go where the
    > > locals go, or you will be "peeled".
    > >
    > > Concerning accomodation, I've no idea about B&B but I've got the
    > > impression they tend to favour a "charme" accomodation and won't be that
    > > cheaper w.r.t hotels. On the other hand these may vary a lot.
    > >
    > > It would be difficult to find a hotel room in a decent hotel in a large
    > > city for less than 80-100 Eur (or much more) on the other hand in
    > > tourist resorts and off-season you can find full-board accomodation in
    > > nice family pensions even for less than that.
    > >
    > > Note that Easter, 25 April and 1 May are sort of high season.
    > >
    > > --
    > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    > > is a newsreading account used by more persons to
    > > avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
    > > Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.

barney

In article <oDEhb.25867$>,
(tile) wrote:

    > well
    > many more towns are interesting..
    > from the north
    > Milano ( do not lsoe yr tiem there.. it is just a busines town)
    > Verona and garda lake
    > Mantova
    > Bologna
    > Ferrara
    > Ravenna

<snip>

You forgot the so-often underrated Torino!

My personal choice, given a month to travel, would probably be for a week
each in Firenze (not my favourite city at all, but so much to see), Rome
and Naples. Side trips out of these cities. And a further week, heavy on
travel, visiting Bologna, Verona and Venice.