Britney

Hi,

Trying to figure out which city would be better to live and work in
(IT-related) out of Rotterdam, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. They are roughly the
same size (pop. and geo.) and with approx same cost of living, and Amsterdam
aside, seem to be your usual kind of modern city with many expats choosing
to reside there.

I've looked around all the major (as well as dodgy-looking) websites about
rentals, employment, relocation and so on, and have read various books, but
it's still difficult to say having never been there and not having known
anyone who has lived in these cities. I'd like to hear it from a
non-promotional voice now.

Can anyone help? I know the Dutch speak perfect English, so my lack of
skills in that area hopefully won't be a problem, but my German is fine.
Can anyone please tell me which has more work, where work was easier to find
(having no knowledge of Dutch), which city is more friendly towards expats
(Australian in this case - but note, I don't need to be around expats
either!), if you've relocated to one or both and how it went, or anything
else at all that you can tell me about why one would be better than the
other. I'm more interested in what was easier to get a start in - ease of
finding a home you liked, ease of finding a job (any) and so on! Like most
young ppl wanting to work overseas for a while, I don't really have the
funds to go to Europe, back to Aus and then back again to move just to see
which city might be better!

Thank you for anything you can share. Feel free to do so privately too
    : harmonicminor007 :AT: hotmail.com.
Rachel

B Vaughan

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:58:30 +1100, "Britney" <>
wrote:

    >Hi,
    >Trying to figure out which city would be better to live and work in
    >(IT-related) out of Rotterdam, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. ...

    >Can anyone help? I know the Dutch speak perfect English, so my lack of
    >skills in that area hopefully won't be a problem, but my German is fine.
    >Can anyone please tell me which has more work, where work was easier to find
    >(having no knowledge of Dutch), which city is more friendly towards expats
    >(Australian in this case - but note, I don't need to be around expats
    >either!)...

I lived and worked in the Netherlands 18 years ago, so my experiences
are not up-to-date. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and, yes, the
Dutch are so fluent in English that I had difficulty learning any
Dutch.

I believe your biggest problem would be getting a work visa. I had an
offer from an employer in the Netherlands before I went, and it was
still a bit of a bureaucratic nightmare getting the visa.
-----------
Barbara Vaughan
My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot it
I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Britney

Thanks. So it is rather pointless stressing about learning the Dutch
language (besides survival stuff) which seems very challenging!

As for the work permit, and for anyone else on here interested in working in
the NL, if you are from Australia or New Zealand (it could be Canada now
too, not sure), you get 12 months no questions (and no job offer!) in the
Netherlands as long as you are 18-30 inclusive and have either a) AUD2000
and a return ticket or b) AUD4000 (no return ticket). Obviously it's good
to have a bit more! So you can go to NL without a job and look for and
change employers and so on for 12 months. After the 12 month period, you
need to get another work permit like everyone else. The first 12 months is
called the "Working Holiday Scheme" ("WHS").

If it's Germany you want to go to without a job offer, it's pretty much the
same deal, however, I believe you need to speak German, can only work for 90
days across the 12 months (at this stage) and need something like AUD1200
per month that you will be there. Any more than 90 days, and you need a
work permit. I'm not 100% on the details of Germany as the scheme with
Germany is quite new, and I personally hope to get a job first due to the
90-day thing.

If anyone else can shed some light on living in Rotterdam, Amsterdam and /
or Frankfurt would be appreciated.


"B Vaughan" <> wrote in message
news:...
    > On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:58:30 +1100, "Britney" <>
    > wrote:
    > >Hi,
    > >
    > >Trying to figure out which city would be better to live and work in
    > >(IT-related) out of Rotterdam, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. ...
    > >Can anyone help? I know the Dutch speak perfect English, so my lack of
    > >skills in that area hopefully won't be a problem, but my German is fine.
    > >Can anyone please tell me which has more work, where work was easier to
find
    > >(having no knowledge of Dutch), which city is more friendly towards
expats
    > >(Australian in this case - but note, I don't need to be around expats
    > >either!)...
    > I lived and worked in the Netherlands 18 years ago, so my experiences
    > are not up-to-date. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and, yes, the
    > Dutch are so fluent in English that I had difficulty learning any
    > Dutch.
    > I believe your biggest problem would be getting a work visa. I had an
    > offer from an employer in the Netherlands before I went, and it was
    > still a bit of a bureaucratic nightmare getting the visa.
    > -----------
    > Barbara Vaughan
    > My email address is my first initial followed by my surname at libero dot
it
    > I answer travel questions only in the newsgroup

Thur

"Britney" <> wrote ...
    > Trying to figure out which city would be better to live and work in
    > (IT-related) out of Rotterdam, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. They are roughly
the
    > same size (pop. and geo.) and with approx same cost of living, and
Amsterdam
    > aside, seem to be your usual kind of modern city with many expats choosing
    > to reside there.


Dor both countries it's useful to learn some basics of course and I would
qualify Amsterdam aswell as a usual kind of modern city with many expats ;-)
Anyway, don't know if it's any help but some time ago an American living in
Amsterdam published here his homepage about Amsterdam. There's also a
section for those wishing to move to the city... and apart from that, the
page itself is kinda funny: http://www.postwarmedia.com/amsterdam.html
Mind yourself that the economical situation at the moment isn't good, for
The Netherlands and Germany there's a economic downturn at the moment with
high(er) unemployment.
Greetz,

*good luck!*

Britney

Thanks Thur. Cool link.

I didnt mean to offend anyone with my modern city comment - I meant
Amsterdam was a bit UNusual in that it has the Red Light District and the
most "coffee shops"!


"Thur" <> wrote in message
news:3fffd9b0$0$34195$...
    > "Britney" <> wrote ...
    > > Trying to figure out which city would be better to live and work in
    > > (IT-related) out of Rotterdam, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. They are roughly
    > the
    > > same size (pop. and geo.) and with approx same cost of living, and
    > Amsterdam
    > > aside, seem to be your usual kind of modern city with many expats
choosing
    > > to reside there.
    > Dor both countries it's useful to learn some basics of course and I would
    > qualify Amsterdam aswell as a usual kind of modern city with many expats
;-)
    > Anyway, don't know if it's any help but some time ago an American living
in
    > Amsterdam published here his homepage about Amsterdam. There's also a
    > section for those wishing to move to the city... and apart from that, the
    > page itself is kinda funny: http://www.postwarmedia.com/amsterdam.html
    > Mind yourself that the economical situation at the moment isn't good, for
    > The Netherlands and Germany there's a economic downturn at the moment with
    > high(er) unemployment.
    > Greetz,
    > *good luck!*

Wolfgang Schwanke

"Britney" <> wrote in
news:3fffd10e$:

    > If anyone else can shed some light on living in Rotterdam, Amsterdam
    > and / or Frankfurt would be appreciated.

You are away that Germany has 10 percent unemployment, are you? That is an
average figure for the entire country, in some regions it's closer to 30.
Frankfurt/Oder is one of those regions, but chances are you mean the other
one where it's a little less.

Regards

Britney

Yes, thanks, I'm aware of unemployment in both countries, but hopefully it's
true about Germany having a few spare IT jobs (I can only try!). Yes, I was
referring to Frankfurt am Main.

"Wolfgang Schwanke" <> wrote in message
news:...
    > "Britney" <> wrote in
    > news:3fffd10e$:
    > > If anyone else can shed some light on living in Rotterdam, Amsterdam
    > > and / or Frankfurt would be appreciated.
    > You are away that Germany has 10 percent unemployment, are you? That is an
    > average figure for the entire country, in some regions it's closer to 30.
    > Frankfurt/Oder is one of those regions, but chances are you mean the other
    > one where it's a little less.
    > Regards
    > --
    > relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken
    > http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de

Wolfgang Schwanke

"Britney" <> wrote in
news::

    > Yes, thanks, I'm aware of unemployment in both countries, but
    > hopefully it's true about Germany having a few spare IT jobs (I can
    > only try!).

No IT is one of those sectors which are affected by unemployment
(unexpectedly, a few years back nobody would have thought).

Regards

Britney

Hmmm...Ok. I guess it was a bad idea bringing out the IT Greencard then!


"Wolfgang Schwanke" <> wrote in message
news:...
    > "Britney" <> wrote in
    > news::
    > > Yes, thanks, I'm aware of unemployment in both countries, but
    > > hopefully it's true about Germany having a few spare IT jobs (I can
    > > only try!).
    > No IT is one of those sectors which are affected by unemployment
    > (unexpectedly, a few years back nobody would have thought).
    > Regards
    > --
    > relaxen und watchen das cursorblinken
    > http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de

Wolfgang Schwanke

"Britney" <> wrote in
news::

    > Hmmm...Ok. I guess it was a bad idea bringing out the IT Greencard
    > then!

Definitely.

Regards