The Wogster

wrote:
    >>>The more affluent would get better results partially because when they
    >>>were told to get out, they would and would have had the means to do
    >>>so. Which is exactly what happened in NO. The haves got out of
    >>>dodge, the have-nots didn't. And it doesn't matter at this point why
    >>>they didn't go.
    >>DOESN'T MATTER?!? So it's important to assign blame if it's Bush
    >>Administration, but not if it's Nagin/Blame-co?!?
    >
    >
    > This was a national catastrophe with effects well outside of New Orleans.
    > The country was in desperate need of some leadership. Why wasn't Bush
    > on national TV on _Tuesday_ (instead of flying to California to speech on
    > Iraq) telling us his response plan for the biggest disaster in American
    > history. Why wasn't he requesting every city and town in the 48 states to
    > figure out how much shelter space they would be able to provide if or when
    > necessary? Why didn't he immediately negotiate reduced or suspended hotel
    > rates with the national chains for the masses of refugees already in hotels?
    > Why didn't Bush order the many naval ships capable of helping to go there
    > immediately? When didn't Bush immediately order a Berlin Airlift type
    > operation out of the New Orleans airport? Why didn't he send troops in
    > immediately? Why didn't he make sure there was a large fleet of vehicles
    > and busses getting the refugees out round the clock? The president could
    > have made all of these happen and I would have expected _any_ president
    > to do these things and more and do them _Tuesday_.
    >

What do you think the President does all day, wait for the NO mayor and
LA governor to screw up so he can bail them out? The NO mayor should
have talked to the governor Friday, when Katrina was growing and looked
to hit them head on, especially considering that the walls around the
sinking city have not been maintained properly in 20 years. The
governor should have called in the guard, Saturday to get everyone out,
then evacuate by Sunday noon at the latest. If it be required, the
Governor could have call the President Saturday, and put things into
operation, BEFORE the storm hit.

W

Kurt Ullman

In article <>,
wrote:

    >This was a national catastrophe with effects well outside of New Orleans.
    >The country was in desperate need of some leadership. Why wasn't Bush
    >on national TV on _Tuesday_ (instead of flying to California to speech on
    >Iraq) telling us his response plan for the biggest disaster in American
    >history. Why wasn't he requesting every city and town in the 48 states to
    >figure out how much shelter space they would be able to provide if or when
    >necessary? Why didn't he immediately negotiate reduced or suspended hotel
    >rates with the national chains for the masses of refugees already in hotels?
    >Why didn't Bush order the many naval ships capable of helping to go there
    >immediately? When didn't Bush immediately order a Berlin Airlift type
    >operation out of the New Orleans airport? Why didn't he send troops in
    >immediately? Why didn't he make sure there was a large fleet of vehicles
    >and busses getting the refugees out round the clock? The president could
    >have made all of these happen and I would have expected _any_ president
    >to do these things and more and do them _Tuesday_.
Ah, because he legally couldn't, with the exception of the
California trip. Constitutionally, legally and traditionally (going
all the way back to the old Civil Defense days) Feds can't do
anything without being asked by the locals. Tain't legal. Berlin
airlift would not have been possible anyway because of damage to the
airport. Active duty troops can only be sent at the request of the
locals and then only under very specific conditions (both liberals
and conservatives are hesitant to deploy active duty troops in the
US, albeit for different reasons and the Active Duty guys have
always encouraged that since they feel they have enough to do (even
w/o Iraq) keeping the rest of the world in shape). The NG, again by
the constitution, are under the command and control of the governor
and when other state's units are sent to a state, they automatically
are chopped to the governor.
The REAL interesting piece of the post-action report will be
when the Feds started asking the state to take over and what the
response was.

Ben Tyner

"Kurt Ullman" <> wrote in message
news:GZdUe.18$...
    > In article <>,
    > wrote:
    >>This was a national catastrophe with effects well outside of New Orleans.
    >>The country was in desperate need of some leadership. Why wasn't Bush
    >>on national TV on _Tuesday_ (instead of flying to California to speech on
    >>Iraq) telling us his response plan for the biggest disaster in American
    >>history. Why wasn't he requesting every city and town in the 48 states to
    >>figure out how much shelter space they would be able to provide if or when
    >>necessary? Why didn't he immediately negotiate reduced or suspended hotel
    >>rates with the national chains for the masses of refugees already in
    >>hotels?
    >>Why didn't Bush order the many naval ships capable of helping to go there
    >>immediately? When didn't Bush immediately order a Berlin Airlift type
    >>operation out of the New Orleans airport? Why didn't he send troops in
    >>immediately? Why didn't he make sure there was a large fleet of vehicles
    >>and busses getting the refugees out round the clock? The president could
    >>have made all of these happen and I would have expected _any_ president
    >>to do these things and more and do them _Tuesday_.
    > Ah, because he legally couldn't, with the exception of the
    > California trip. Constitutionally, legally and traditionally (going
    > all the way back to the old Civil Defense days) Feds can't do
    > anything without being asked by the locals. Tain't legal.

You are wrong. Do you know anything about the Department of Homeland
InSecurity? This was Bush's baby, wasn't it?

http://www.alternet.org/story/25227/

But Chertoff's Sept. 1 statement ignored the administration's own homeland
security response plan, which directed the federal government to act on its
own authority to quickly provide assistance and conduct emergency operations
following a major catastrophe, pre-empting state and local authorities if
necessary. According to DHS' December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP),
"catastrophic events," such as what occurred in New Orleans, call for
heightened and "proactive" federal involvement to manage the disaster. The
response plan listed "guiding principles" to govern the response to these
major events. The "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response" make
clear that, in these "catastrophic" cases, the federal government will
operate independently to provide assistance, rather than simply supporting
or cajoling state authorities:

a.. The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure,
property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national
security.

b.. Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited
or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an
event of catastrophic magnitude.

c.. Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary
operations as required to commence life-safety activities.

d.. Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the
coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use
of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
governments regarding a proactive Federal response.

e.. State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative
planning with the Federal Government as a part of "steady-state"
preparedness for catastrophic incidents."

The NRP also says that, when responding to a catastrophic incident, the
federal government should start emergency operations even in the absence of
clear assessment of the situation. "A detailed and credible common operating
picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the
incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states. "As a result, response
activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete
situation and critical needs assessment."

A Sept. 5 Los Angeles Times article quoted former FEMA chief of staff Jane
Bullock saying that "[t]he moment the president declared a federal disaster
[on Aug 29], it became a federal responsibility. ... The federal government
took ownership over the response." Moreover, DHS' own website declares that
DHS "will assume primary responsibility on March 1st [2005] for ensuring
that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This
will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any
large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

BT

Bob the Cow

<> wrote in message news:...
    > This was a national catastrophe with effects well outside of New Orleans.
    > Why wasn't Bush
    > Why wasn't he requesting every city and town
    > Why didn't he immediately negotiate reduced or suspended hotel
    > rates with the national chains
    > Why didn't Bush order the many naval ships
    > When didn't Bush immediately order a Berlin Airlift type
    > operation out of the New Orleans airport?
    > Why didn't he send troops in immediately?
    > Why didn't he make sure there was a large fleet of vehicles
    > and busses getting the refugees out round the clock?

Because if he'd done any or all of the above things, extremists of all
stripes would be waxing poetic and using words like Gestapo, Storm Troops,
Jackboots, and Federal usurpation of state and local authority.

Katrina, like 9/11, was unprecedented in our nation's history. There was a
"failure of imagination" in even comprehending that either could take place
on our soil. The responses you've suggested, while certainly appropriate in
hindsight, were also unprecedented, and similarly unimagined. You've vastly
overestimated the agility of ANY Governmental agency in responding to ANY
crisis. It takes seven people in any Government organization to do the job
one person could do in the private sector, and if even ONE of those seven
isn't there, or doesn't care, the thing doesn't get done. That's bad, but
that is how Government has evolved. There's a lot of fault to go around.

By the way, although one might speculate that "busses" might have made the
"refugees" feel better, and maybe given the President some great photo ops,
"buses" might have been more useful in the situation at hand. Got a
dictionary? ;-)

Those buses that sat in the flooded parking lot weren't under Federal or
even State control. If there's one picture that illustrates the overall
lack of response to the emergency, that might be it.

Ben Tyner

"Bob the Cow" <> wrote in message
news:qPadnWa7LOSqEbzeRVn-...
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> This was a national catastrophe with effects well outside of New Orleans.
    >> Why wasn't Bush
    >> Why wasn't he requesting every city and town
    >> Why didn't he immediately negotiate reduced or suspended hotel
    >> rates with the national chains
    >> Why didn't Bush order the many naval ships
    >> When didn't Bush immediately order a Berlin Airlift type
    >> operation out of the New Orleans airport?
    >> Why didn't he send troops in immediately?
    >> Why didn't he make sure there was a large fleet of vehicles
    >> and busses getting the refugees out round the clock?
    > Because if he'd done any or all of the above things, extremists of all
    > stripes would be waxing poetic and using words like Gestapo, Storm Troops,
    > Jackboots, and Federal usurpation of state and local authority.
    > Katrina, like 9/11, was unprecedented in our nation's history. There was
    > a "failure of imagination" in even comprehending that either could take
    > place on our soil. The responses you've suggested, while certainly
    > appropriate in hindsight, were also unprecedented, and similarly
    > unimagined. You've vastly overestimated the agility of ANY Governmental
    > agency in responding to ANY crisis. It takes seven people in any
    > Government organization to do the job one person could do in the private
    > sector, and if even ONE of those seven isn't there, or doesn't care, the
    > thing doesn't get done. That's bad, but that is how Government has
    > evolved. There's a lot of fault to go around.
    > By the way, although one might speculate that "busses" might have made the
    > "refugees" feel better, and maybe given the President some great photo
    > ops, "buses" might have been more useful in the situation at hand. Got a
    > dictionary? ;-)
    > Those buses that sat in the flooded parking lot weren't under Federal or
    > even State control. If there's one picture that illustrates the overall
    > lack of response to the emergency, that might be it.

The picture that best illustrates the overall lack of response to the
emergency is http://www.boingboing.net/2005/08/31...two_photo.html

Nero fiddles while Rome burns.
Bush does some pickin' and grinnin' while the Gulf Coast drowns.

Yee-haw!

BT

Petal and Leif

"Bob the Cow" <> wrote in message
news:qPadnWa7LOSqEbzeRVn-...

    > Katrina, like 9/11, was unprecedented in our nation's history.


Was it?
I was once watching a very interesting programme about hurricanes on
Discovery Channel.
And one of the worst case scenarios for USA, was said that a powerful
hurricane would come into the area of New Orleans, making the water go over,
or break the dikes that protect the city from flooding.
So, it can not have been that unpredicted, can it?
After all, New Orleans is in the region that hurricanes occur every year.
We knew Katarina were coming. We knew she was a category 5, long before she
reached the city....


Leif

Bob the Cow

"Petal and Leif" <> wrote in message
news:...
    >> Katrina, like 9/11, was unprecedented in our nation's history.

    > Discovery Channel.
    > And one of the worst case scenarios for USA, was said that a powerful
    > hurricane would come into the area of New Orleans, making the water go
    > over, or break the dikes that protect the city from flooding.
    > So, it can not have been that unpredicted, can it?

Note that I said "unprecedented". Meaning -- without PRECEDENT. Nothing
like Katrina, inundating an entire city like New Orleans has EVER happened
on our shores before.

Watch the same Discovery Channel long enough and you'll see a PREDICTION
that a major earthquake will kill thousands of people in Southern
California. It HAS been predicted. It HAS NOT happened. Therefore, it is
NOT unpredicted, but it IS unprecedented.

I sense that we're divided by a common language by your sentence structure
and your spelling of "programme". My statement was accurate, as was yours.

Bill

Ben Tyner wrote:
    > "Kurt Ullman" <> wrote in message
    > news:GZdUe.18$...
    >
    >>In article <>,
    >>wrote:
    >>>This was a national catastrophe with effects well outside of New Orleans.
    >>>The country was in desperate need of some leadership. Why wasn't Bush
    >>>on national TV on _Tuesday_ (instead of flying to California to speech on
    >>>Iraq) telling us his response plan for the biggest disaster in American
    >>>history. Why wasn't he requesting every city and town in the 48 states to
    >>>figure out how much shelter space they would be able to provide if or when
    >>>necessary? Why didn't he immediately negotiate reduced or suspended hotel
    >>>rates with the national chains for the masses of refugees already in
    >>>hotels?
    >>>Why didn't Bush order the many naval ships capable of helping to go there
    >>>immediately? When didn't Bush immediately order a Berlin Airlift type
    >>>operation out of the New Orleans airport? Why didn't he send troops in
    >>>immediately? Why didn't he make sure there was a large fleet of vehicles
    >>>and busses getting the refugees out round the clock? The president could
    >>>have made all of these happen and I would have expected _any_ president
    >>>to do these things and more and do them _Tuesday_.
    >> Ah, because he legally couldn't, with the exception of the
    >>California trip. Constitutionally, legally and traditionally (going
    >>all the way back to the old Civil Defense days) Feds can't do
    >>anything without being asked by the locals. Tain't legal.
    >
    >
    > You are wrong. Do you know anything about the Department of Homeland
    > InSecurity? This was Bush's baby, wasn't it?
    >
    > http://www.alternet.org/story/25227/
    >
    > But Chertoff's Sept. 1 statement ignored the administration's own homeland
    > security response plan, which directed the federal government to act on its
    > own authority to quickly provide assistance and conduct emergency operations
    > following a major catastrophe, pre-empting state and local authorities if
    > necessary. According to DHS' December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP),
    > "catastrophic events," such as what occurred in New Orleans, call for
    > heightened and "proactive" federal involvement to manage the disaster. The
    > response plan listed "guiding principles" to govern the response to these
    > major events. The "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response" make
    > clear that, in these "catastrophic" cases, the federal government will
    > operate independently to provide assistance, rather than simply supporting
    > or cajoling state authorities:
    >
    > a.. The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure,
    > property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national
    > security.
    >
    > b.. Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited
    > or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an
    > event of catastrophic magnitude.
    >
    > c.. Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary
    > operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
    >
    > d.. Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the
    > coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use
    > of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local
    > governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
    >
    > e.. State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative
    > planning with the Federal Government as a part of "steady-state"
    > preparedness for catastrophic incidents."
    >
    > The NRP also says that, when responding to a catastrophic incident, the
    > federal government should start emergency operations even in the absence of
    > clear assessment of the situation. "A detailed and credible common operating
    > picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the
    > incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states. "As a result, response
    > activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete
    > situation and critical needs assessment."
    >
    > A Sept. 5 Los Angeles Times article quoted former FEMA chief of staff Jane
    > Bullock saying that "[t]he moment the president declared a federal disaster
    > [on Aug 29], it became a federal responsibility. ... The federal government
    > took ownership over the response." Moreover, DHS' own website declares that
    > DHS "will assume primary responsibility on March 1st [2005] for ensuring
    > that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This
    > will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any
    > large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.
    >
    > BT
    >
    >
It is only the DHS when they think guns, bombs or drugs are involved. In
every other case it is "Screw you, you aren't a terrorist so we don't care."
Great President we (you, not me) elected. Florida and Texas deserve
massive hurricanes and then let's see what he does on his family states.
Bush hater,
Bill Baka

Tanker

You know what people are forgetting? OK they are not forgetting they are
actually ignoring the fact. Blanco and Nagin BOTH tested the emergency
evacuation plan of NOLA and found that it failed. WHY??? Because they could
not get all the bus drivers to get their buses rolling. Guess what folks?
They didn't do it this time either. And the sheer fact that if President
Bush ordered the forced evacuation of an American city would like someone
else has said be tantamount to federal martial law and the failure of Posse
Comitadus...As for the Navy...Do you read? Do you actually listen to the
news? The Iwo Jima was on station in 83 hrs. The Truman was on station in 65
hrs. Yes it took them sometime as they were in the ATLANTIC!!

BTW, did you know that the LA National Guard activated itself? Yes! Because
Blanco was sitting on her ass with her thumb buried deep in it! Don't you
find it the least bit funny that after Bush told Nagin he sould have ordered
the manditory evacuation of the city that Nagin orders it evacuated 24hrs
after his meeting with the President? Nagin still couldn't come to terms
with ordering people to leave!!!! And Nagin's original mandatory evacuation
wasn't even manditory because 300,000 still remained....where were the city
and school buses that NOLA's emergency evacuation plans call for to help the
removal of the cities poor? NO WHERE except under water!!

What about the nursing home staffers that fled leaving patients in beds? Did
you know that the VA Hospitals were the only agency that took the warning of
the President the day before land fall and moved its people to safety
patients and all.....My final thought to you is READ THE CONSTITUTION. And
please don't tell me you have. Because then I would tell you that you missed
the little part about the Federal Government meddling in state affairs.


Tanker

Bill Sornson

Tanker wrote:
    > You know what people are forgetting? OK they are not forgetting they
    > are actually ignoring the fact. Blanco and Nagin BOTH tested the
    > emergency evacuation plan of NOLA and found that it failed. WHY???
    > Because they could not get all the bus drivers to get their buses
    > rolling. Guess what folks? They didn't do it this time either.

Funny, they always seemed to get 'em rolling on election days.

    > And the sheer fact that if President Bush ordered the forced evacuation
    > of an American city would like someone else has said be tantamount to
    > federal martial law and the failure of Posse Comitadus...As for the
    > Navy...Do you read? Do you actually listen to the news? The Iwo Jima
    > was on station in 83 hrs. The Truman was on station in 65 hrs. Yes it
    > took them sometime as they were in the ATLANTIC!!
    > BTW, did you know that the LA National Guard activated itself? Yes!
    > Because Blanco was sitting on her ass with her thumb buried deep in
    > it! Don't you find it the least bit funny that after Bush told Nagin
    > he sould have ordered the manditory evacuation of the city that Nagin
    > orders it evacuated 24hrs after his meeting with the President? Nagin
    > still couldn't come to terms with ordering people to leave!!!! And
    > Nagin's original mandatory evacuation wasn't even manditory because
    > 300,000 still remained....where were the city and school buses that
    > NOLA's emergency evacuation plans call for to help the removal of the
    > cities poor? NO WHERE except under water!!

He demanded Greyhound buses, while his own municipal and school buses went
unused.

    > What about the nursing home staffers that fled leaving patients in
    > beds? Did you know that the VA Hospitals were the only agency that
    > took the warning of the President the day before land fall and moved
    > its people to safety patients and all.....My final thought to you is
    > READ THE CONSTITUTION. And please don't tell me you have. Because
    > then I would tell you that you missed the little part about the
    > Federal Government meddling in state affairs.

Nancy Pelosi, after accusing a CNN anchor of being on the White House's
payroll because she DARED to ask about her own record re. funding NOLA and
votes re. FEMA/HLS, then tried to imply that Bush was responsible for that
nursing home tragedy, too. Sadly, by then the anchor was sucking up to her,
so she didn't call her on it.