Peter Ibrahim

Hi,

A few friends and I are looking to travel to the USA next Summer. We plan
on spending 3-4 weeks there, flying into Phoenix and then heading to a few
various National Parks, coupled with some of the big cities on the West
Coast. More specifically, this is what I've considered as a plan:

-Flying into PHX
-Driving to Flagstaff
-Visiting the Petrified Forest before heading North to Monument Valley
-From there, heading SW to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon
-Travelling into Utah to see Zion National Park, and then heading SW again
to Las Vegas.
-From Las Vegas, heading NW through Death Valley, to Yosemite National Park.
-We then plan on travelling to San Francisco, before driving down Highway 1
to LA, and further, San Diego.
-From San Diego (which isn't a definite stop on our trip) to Joshua Tree
National Park.
-Heading NE to the old Route 66 road between Seligman and Kingman, and
hopefully visiting Havasupai (?).
-Finally heading back towards Flagstaff, before driving south through Sedona
to return to PHX.

What I'm unsure about is how to divide up time between the various places.

Monument Valley looked like the kind of place it would be good to stop at
briefly, but nothing longer really, as there didn't strike me as being a
great deal to do there. As for motels in the area, I figure the best place
to stop at there would be Mexican Hat (?). Without having the info in front
of me, I seem to recall that Kayenta and Mexican Hat were the two nearest
areas with motels, and MH was much cheaper.

As for the Grand Canyon, how long is it reasonable to stay there? We would
be looking to hike to the bottom of the Canyon, and we'd probably take the
Bright Angel trail. From what I've read, it's best to hike down in one day,
and hike up the next. Is two days enough time to spend in the Canyon?
Personally I didn't feel there was as much to do/see here as in Yosemite,
and I figured two days might be enough to cover it. Comments..?

I'd imagine 3/4 days would be good for Yosemite. Probably check out
Yosemite Valley, and then hike to the other areas, such as Tuolomne Meadows.
As for Death Valley, all I anticipate here would be a quick walk from the
car to get some photos, possibly see Badlands, and then move on. I'd
imagine the intense heat would make anything else pretty uncomfortable
really. Sound about right...?

I don't know a huge amount about Zion National Park, although I do know
there's an abundance of other NP's nearby - Bryce, Canyonlands, Arches, etc.
How long would be a reasonable time to spend in Zion, and would it be
worthwhile changing the itinerary to visit these nearby NP's? If we could
just visit one of the others, which should we plump for..?

I also don't entirely understand the situation regarding cars in National
Parks. Regarding Yosemite, its my understanding that we could drive in, and
park somewhere in the Valley, e.g. a car park near Curry Village. Are these
car parks free? What is the maximum parking duration? As for the Grand
Canyon, I recall reading that a westward drive is shut off in the summer
months, but an eastward drive yields some parking places. Do we just park
the car and set off hiking? Is it that simply? Absolute 'beginner's
advice' for what to do regarding cars in National Parks would be much
appreciated, as would any comments on the plan as a whole!

Cheers

Peter

User 1.Nospam

Let me suggest this itinerary.
Phoenix to Grand Canyon to Monument Valley to Durango, Colorado (Mesa Verde
NP, narrow guage train ride), reverse to Cortez then up to Moab, Utah
(Canyonlands, Arches, Dead Horse Point) then to Bryce Canyon, Zion, Las
Vegas. Death Valley and Joshua Tree are outrageously hot in the summer
(110f or more), go if you like. Anyway, after Vegas up 395 and over Tioga
Pass (fabulous road) into Yosemite, then to SF, down to Monterrey (do the
"17 mile drive") then to Calif 1 down the coast--tour Hearst Castle at San
Simeon, and so on.
The only thing worth seeing that this misses is the giant Sequoia trees.
Believe me, you haven't seen a big tree until you have seen them!

Where are you flying in from??

Peter Ibrahim

"User 1.nospam" <> wrote in message
news:IHGGb.5663$...
    > Let me suggest this itinerary.
    > Phoenix to Grand Canyon to Monument Valley to Durango, Colorado (Mesa
Verde
    > NP, narrow guage train ride), reverse to Cortez then up to Moab, Utah
    > (Canyonlands, Arches, Dead Horse Point) then to Bryce Canyon, Zion, Las
    > Vegas. Death Valley and Joshua Tree are outrageously hot in the summer
    > (110f or more), go if you like. Anyway, after Vegas up 395 and over Tioga
    > Pass (fabulous road) into Yosemite, then to SF, down to Monterrey (do the
    > "17 mile drive") then to Calif 1 down the coast--tour Hearst Castle at San
    > Simeon, and so on.
    > The only thing worth seeing that this misses is the giant Sequoia trees.
    > Believe me, you haven't seen a big tree until you have seen them!
    > Where are you flying in from??

Thanks for the proposal! Will fire up a map and check out the places you've
mentioned. Hadn't planned on spending a huge amount of time in Joshua Tree
anyway, and if its very hot then I may just give it a miss.

I'm flying in from LHR. Never been to America before, and I can't wait for
it.

How long do you estimate the 395 drive from Vegas to Yosemite to be? Using
the route I detailed earlier, I had it as 132mi (3hr 12) from Vegas to Death
Valley, and a further 340mi (8hr 23) to Yosemite (using MSN Maps). The
slightly thorny issue with that area of the itinerary was the fact that
there wasn't much choice of where to stop at - I seem to recall there were
only a few towns along the route, Lee Vining and Beatty being two I
remember. Is finding a motel to stop over at easier along the Tioga
Pass...?

Cheers for the advice!

Pete

Ken

"Peter Ibrahim" <> wrote in
news:bsfhq3$k0u$:
    > How long do you estimate the 395 drive from Vegas to Yosemite to be?

I recommend driving up 395 from Death Valley and spending the night in Mammoth
Lakes (lots of motels and restaurants) or Bishop (closer to Death Valley, but
fewer accomodations). The next day, visit Mono Lake and Bodie, then head up to
Tuolumne Meadows in the afternoon. Spend at least 3 nights (preferably more)
in Yosemite.

BTW - there are 2 nice sequoia groves in Yosemite. Try to visit at least one
of them.

Private cars are not allowed in Zion National Park and Devils Postpile National
Monument (near Mammoth Lakes) except to access accomodations inside the park.
The more popular parks usually have shuttle bus systems (sometimes free,
sometimes not) that are usually more convenient than driving. Long term
parking is free inside the parks (after you pay the park admission fee). See
www.nps.gov for specifics on each park.

Julie

You don't include Bryce NP on your list. I would definitely go there also.
It is spectacular.

Julie

"Peter Ibrahim" <> wrote in message
news:bsfaoh$84s$...
    > Hi,
    > A few friends and I are looking to travel to the USA next Summer. We plan
    > on spending 3-4 weeks there, flying into Phoenix and then heading to a few
    > various National Parks, coupled with some of the big cities on the West
    > Coast. More specifically, this is what I've considered as a plan:
    > -Flying into PHX
    > -Driving to Flagstaff
    > -Visiting the Petrified Forest before heading North to Monument Valley
    > -From there, heading SW to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon
    > -Travelling into Utah to see Zion National Park, and then heading SW again
    > to Las Vegas.
    > -From Las Vegas, heading NW through Death Valley, to Yosemite National
Park.
    > -We then plan on travelling to San Francisco, before driving down Highway
1
    > to LA, and further, San Diego.
    > -From San Diego (which isn't a definite stop on our trip) to Joshua Tree
    > National Park.
    > -Heading NE to the old Route 66 road between Seligman and Kingman, and
    > hopefully visiting Havasupai (?).
    > -Finally heading back towards Flagstaff, before driving south through
Sedona
    > to return to PHX.
    > What I'm unsure about is how to divide up time between the various places.
    > Monument Valley looked like the kind of place it would be good to stop at
    > briefly, but nothing longer really, as there didn't strike me as being a
    > great deal to do there. As for motels in the area, I figure the best
place
    > to stop at there would be Mexican Hat (?). Without having the info in
front
    > of me, I seem to recall that Kayenta and Mexican Hat were the two nearest
    > areas with motels, and MH was much cheaper.
    > As for the Grand Canyon, how long is it reasonable to stay there? We
would
    > be looking to hike to the bottom of the Canyon, and we'd probably take the
    > Bright Angel trail. From what I've read, it's best to hike down in one
day,
    > and hike up the next. Is two days enough time to spend in the Canyon?
    > Personally I didn't feel there was as much to do/see here as in Yosemite,
    > and I figured two days might be enough to cover it. Comments..?
    > I'd imagine 3/4 days would be good for Yosemite. Probably check out
    > Yosemite Valley, and then hike to the other areas, such as Tuolomne
Meadows.
    > As for Death Valley, all I anticipate here would be a quick walk from the
    > car to get some photos, possibly see Badlands, and then move on. I'd
    > imagine the intense heat would make anything else pretty uncomfortable
    > really. Sound about right...?
    > I don't know a huge amount about Zion National Park, although I do know
    > there's an abundance of other NP's nearby - Bryce, Canyonlands, Arches,
etc.
    > How long would be a reasonable time to spend in Zion, and would it be
    > worthwhile changing the itinerary to visit these nearby NP's? If we could
    > just visit one of the others, which should we plump for..?
    > I also don't entirely understand the situation regarding cars in National
    > Parks. Regarding Yosemite, its my understanding that we could drive in,
and
    > park somewhere in the Valley, e.g. a car park near Curry Village. Are
these
    > car parks free? What is the maximum parking duration? As for the Grand
    > Canyon, I recall reading that a westward drive is shut off in the summer
    > months, but an eastward drive yields some parking places. Do we just park
    > the car and set off hiking? Is it that simply? Absolute 'beginner's
    > advice' for what to do regarding cars in National Parks would be much
    > appreciated, as would any comments on the plan as a whole!
    > Cheers
    > Peter

Graham Harrison

Check out what the extra cost would be to hire the car in one place and drop
it somewhere else. As far as the air fare is concerned it isn't an issue,
they simply take half of one round trip, half the other and add them
together; you pay no premium. The car will probably attract a one way fee
but (a) different car hire companies have different fees (b) the direction
of the one way can make a difference (I don't remember the details but it
used to be the case that if you went one way between LA and SF there was a
fee and if you went the other there wasn't!). I paid USD250 for Seattle
to San Francisco and USD100.00 for Charlotte to Washington DC some years
ago. If you begin, or end, in San Francisco you won't need a car. Public
transport in San Francisco is good - http://www.sfmuni.com and
http://www.transitinfo.org/index.asp . In fact I would go so far as to say
a car is a bad thing in San Francisco; it will cost you to park for a start.

Don't rush your trip. Take it easy and see more of less than less of more.
The first couple of times I went to the US I planned enormous itineraries
and came back shattered and then had to go back to see the things I missed!

Unlike the UK you don't need to use motorways to go A-B at a reasonable
speed (what am I saying about UK motorways?!). As such, consider US60 via
Globe and Show Low to go from Phoenix to the Petrified Forest. Show Low
has motels. Then kink out to Window Rock on your way north to Monument
Valley and don't miss Canyon de Chelley (oh while I think of it www.nps.gov
for National Park and Monument information). Once at Monument Valley there
are motels at the southern entrance (Kayenta). Don't know about further
north.

Consider a side trip to 4 corners (tacky but it IS the only place in the US
where 4 states meet at the same point) and then stop at Mesa Verde National
Park, the dwellings are well worth a visit. The Durango and Silverton
railway could be likened to a longer Bluebell Line but with the kind of
locos and rolling stock you see in cowboy movies and mountain scenery to die
for.

Moving on in your proposal once you get off 395 and onto the Tioga Pass road
I don't believe there are any motels. It's some years since I went that
way but I think there's some kind of tented accommodation at Toulomne
Meadows but check the NPS site for details. Oh, and by the way, book any
accommodation IN National Parks in advance. Places like Yosemite and the
Grand Canyon fill months in advance - Phantom Ranch (the bunkhouse and
campground at the bottom of the Canyon) fills much longer in advance; you
can sometimes get last minute cancellations, but don't count on it. When I
walked to Phantom I arrived, spent a night on the rim, walked down Kaibab
trail, spent the night, walked up Bright Angel and spent another night
before moving on. Seemed about right to me. First time I did it I didn't
have a car, second time one person decided not to hike so she looked after
the car. The East drive is an actual road (towards Tuba City) so it (so
far) has remained open. But the west drive became so clogged with traffic
the road was closed last I heard and they run shuttle buses instead. The
NPS site is your best source, in my opinion.

Slightly off tack I tried to book Yellowstone last September about 2 weeks
before I got there and the only thing I was offered was of the order of
USD300/night! Had to stay in one of the tourist towns just outside the
park. It's one of the things I find frustrating about touring the US.
Generally, finding accommodation "on the fly" is easy. However, the
National Parks are a different kettle of fish and booking them in advance
begins to mean booking the whole trip.

Also, consider booking San Francisco. It isn't just a tourist town.
Conventions can fill things up. If you do one thing in SF go to
Alacatraz - book in advance (again!)
http://www.blueandgoldfleet.com/alca...er_service.htm

Summer in the desert can be hot and dry. It's very different to the heat
we have in the UK. Drink lots of water. Even sitting in an air
conditioned car can drain fluid from you. Drink like your life depends on
it (it does!). Hiking consumes even more fluid. Temperatures in the
bottom of the Canyon can exceed 100F.

Peter Ibrahim

"Graham Harrison" <> wrote in
message news:bsflnn$p8v$...
    > Check out what the extra cost would be to hire the car in one place and
drop
    > it somewhere else. As far as the air fare is concerned it isn't an
issue,
    > they simply take half of one round trip, half the other and add them
    > together; you pay no premium. The car will probably attract a one way
fee
    > but (a) different car hire companies have different fees (b) the direction
    > of the one way can make a difference (I don't remember the details but it
    > used to be the case that if you went one way between LA and SF there was a
    > fee and if you went the other there wasn't!). I paid USD250 for Seattle
    > to San Francisco and USD100.00 for Charlotte to Washington DC some years
    > ago. If you begin, or end, in San Francisco you won't need a car.
Public
    > transport in San Francisco is good - http://www.sfmuni.com and
    > http://www.transitinfo.org/index.asp . In fact I would go so far as to
say
    > a car is a bad thing in San Francisco; it will cost you to park for a
start.
    > Don't rush your trip. Take it easy and see more of less than less of
more.
    > The first couple of times I went to the US I planned enormous itineraries
    > and came back shattered and then had to go back to see the things I
missed!
    > Unlike the UK you don't need to use motorways to go A-B at a reasonable
    > speed (what am I saying about UK motorways?!). As such, consider US60
via
    > Globe and Show Low to go from Phoenix to the Petrified Forest. Show Low
    > has motels. Then kink out to Window Rock on your way north to Monument
    > Valley and don't miss Canyon de Chelley (oh while I think of it
www.nps.gov
    > for National Park and Monument information). Once at Monument Valley
there
    > are motels at the southern entrance (Kayenta). Don't know about further
    > north.
    > Consider a side trip to 4 corners (tacky but it IS the only place in the
US
    > where 4 states meet at the same point) and then stop at Mesa Verde
National
    > Park, the dwellings are well worth a visit. The Durango and Silverton
    > railway could be likened to a longer Bluebell Line but with the kind of
    > locos and rolling stock you see in cowboy movies and mountain scenery to
die
    > for.
    > Moving on in your proposal once you get off 395 and onto the Tioga Pass
road
    > I don't believe there are any motels. It's some years since I went that
    > way but I think there's some kind of tented accommodation at Toulomne
    > Meadows but check the NPS site for details. Oh, and by the way, book any
    > accommodation IN National Parks in advance. Places like Yosemite and the
    > Grand Canyon fill months in advance - Phantom Ranch (the bunkhouse and
    > campground at the bottom of the Canyon) fills much longer in advance; you
    > can sometimes get last minute cancellations, but don't count on it. When
I
    > walked to Phantom I arrived, spent a night on the rim, walked down Kaibab
    > trail, spent the night, walked up Bright Angel and spent another night
    > before moving on. Seemed about right to me. First time I did it I
didn't
    > have a car, second time one person decided not to hike so she looked after
    > the car. The East drive is an actual road (towards Tuba City) so it (so
    > far) has remained open. But the west drive became so clogged with
traffic
    > the road was closed last I heard and they run shuttle buses instead. The
    > NPS site is your best source, in my opinion.
    > Slightly off tack I tried to book Yellowstone last September about 2 weeks
    > before I got there and the only thing I was offered was of the order of
    > USD300/night! Had to stay in one of the tourist towns just outside the
    > park. It's one of the things I find frustrating about touring the US.
    > Generally, finding accommodation "on the fly" is easy. However, the
    > National Parks are a different kettle of fish and booking them in advance
    > begins to mean booking the whole trip.
    > Also, consider booking San Francisco. It isn't just a tourist town.
    > Conventions can fill things up. If you do one thing in SF go to
    > Alacatraz - book in advance (again!)
    > http://www.blueandgoldfleet.com/alca...er_service.htm
    > Summer in the desert can be hot and dry. It's very different to the heat
    > we have in the UK. Drink lots of water. Even sitting in an air
    > conditioned car can drain fluid from you. Drink like your life depends
on
    > it (it does!). Hiking consumes even more fluid. Temperatures in the
    > bottom of the Canyon can exceed 100F.
    > --
    > *****
    > *****The "return to" address embedded in this mail is wrong as an antispam
    > measure. Please address new mails or replies to
    > edward<dot>harrison1<at>btinternet<dot>com replacing <dot> with a . and
<at>
    > with an @*****
    > *****

Thanks for the very detailed response! Regarding a one-way trip, I wasn't
aware that it wasn't prohibitively expensive with flights - I thought they
jumped up justas much as the car prices do, so if its just an average of the
two flights then that might be ok. Having said that, I was on the phone to
Avis, and they said it would be another £200 to drop the car off in a
different place. I guess it means balancing up the increased cost against
potentially greater flexibility. Having said that, I really want to do the
Highway 1 Drive, and I also want to see the National Parks in Utah, and also
Vegas, and the two differing areas are perhaps better suited to a round
trip, beginning and ending in either PHX or SFO. Point taken about
transport in San Francisco, I'm assuming the cablecars there are pretty
reliable then? I guess the only thing we'd miss out on by not having a car
is the Crookedest Street in the World Having said that however, is it
feasible to travel from San Francisco Airport to central downtown easily
with public transport? The cheapest motels all seem to be located near SFO,
so if we went out to town in the evening, would it be relatively easy (and
cheap-ish) to simply hire a taxi back to the motels near SFO?

I'll need to read up on Mesa Verde, and a few other areas you and other
people have mentioned that I'm not familiar with. I suppose its worthwhile
checking out Four Corners for the novelty value, probably a quick stop-off
in the same vein as Monument Valley will be really. I'm assuming with the
Durango railway there is a car park provided, and the train trip is
circular? Could make a nice break from driving while still providing a lot
of eye candy.

Regarding accommodation in National Parks, a lot of it looks very expensive,
with the exception of the tent cabins in Curry Village. I'd imagine we
might spent a night there, and then camp out for a few nights. Do we need
to book campsites up in advance? Or is it only dedicated accommodation that
sells out very early?

Somewhat unrelated, but it seems that all cars come with the standard 'AM/FM
radio'. Is it possible to simply affix a standard UK tape/cd player in the
bay, and use that for the journey instead? Or are we stuck with simply what
is on the radio? For driving such long distances, it would certainly be
quite useful to do this.

Have heard good things about Alcatraz, any idea how late we could
potentially leave bookings before we're in real jeopardy of not finding any?
I really need to plan out a timeframe for my journey soon enough that I can
work out what period I'm likely to be in San Francisco.

Thanks for all the advice

Peter

Peter Ibrahim

"Ken" <> wrote in message
news:Xns945C8746A92E9fubar123@216.251.47.166...
    > "Peter Ibrahim" <> wrote in
    > news:bsfhq3$k0u$:
    > > How long do you estimate the 395 drive from Vegas to Yosemite to be?
    > I recommend driving up 395 from Death Valley and spending the night in
Mammoth
    > Lakes (lots of motels and restaurants) or Bishop (closer to Death Valley,
but
    > fewer accomodations). The next day, visit Mono Lake and Bodie, then head
up to
    > Tuolumne Meadows in the afternoon. Spend at least 3 nights (preferably
more)
    > in Yosemite.
    > BTW - there are 2 nice sequoia groves in Yosemite. Try to visit at least
one
    > of them.
    > Private cars are not allowed in Zion National Park and Devils Postpile
National
    > Monument (near Mammoth Lakes) except to access accomodations inside the
park.
    > The more popular parks usually have shuttle bus systems (sometimes free,
    > sometimes not) that are usually more convenient than driving. Long term
    > parking is free inside the parks (after you pay the park admission fee).
See
    > www.nps.gov for specifics on each park.

Thanks for the tips Ken, glad you've explained the private vehicle system in
NPs. I'll read up on exactly which towns/areas Zion operates a shuttle bus
to. Checked out the NPS website a few days ago, but I find it pales to a
lot of the unofficial websites - DesertUSA.com and AmericanSouthWest.net
have a lot of information that feels more suited for first time NP visitors.
Still, found out about the NP Pass from the official website, and I'll
definitely take advantage of that. It does state however that it allows for
entry for the whole vehicle when the NP has a 'per vehicle' fee, but only
admits you/your spouse/etc. when park operates a 'per person' fee. From
what I can see most of the parks I'm looking at operate a per vehicle fee,
so it should be a big moneysaver.

Ah yes, I remember reading a bit about Bishop online. Will check out the
prices in Mammoth Lakes and see which is cheaper, the extra distance
shouldn't be a problem as we don't plan on spending too much time outside
the car within Death Valley!

Thanks for the advice

Peter

Peter Ibrahim

"Julie" <> wrote in message
news:bsfl0c$cm3ct$...
    > You don't include Bryce NP on your list. I would definitely go there
also.
    > It is spectacular.
    > Julie

Bryce was one of my 'possibles', along with Canyonlands and Arches, that I'm
considering fitting in as well. Have you been to the latter two as well?
Any opinions on them?

User 1.Nospam

    > How long do you estimate the 395 drive from Vegas to Yosemite to be?
Using
    > the route I detailed earlier, I had it as 132mi (3hr 12) from Vegas to
Death
    > Valley, and a further 340mi (8hr 23) to Yosemite (using MSN Maps). The
    > slightly thorny issue with that area of the itinerary was the fact that
    > there wasn't much choice of where to stop at - I seem to recall there were
    > only a few towns along the route, Lee Vining and Beatty being two I
    > remember. Is finding a motel to stop over at easier along the Tioga
    > Pass...?

Your driving times are pretty liberal....most Americans on long haul
highways drive closer to 70mph...(sometimes more). One poster suggested
Mammoth area for lodging...thats good, as is Lee Vining or Bishop.
Otherwise there is nothing on that side of the Sierras.
Nothing over Tioga Pass. That road is only open in the summer anyway. If
you want to stay in yosemite you need to make your reservations wayyyy ahead
of time. Staying outside of Yosemite in the summer is also a challenge if
you haven't made reservations. It is a very popular area and summer brings
families and tourists galore! (Personally, I would suggest late May or
early June for this trip.)